The Shame Machine w/ Cathy O'Neil
In this episode of Talk Nerdy, Cara is joined by mathematician Dr. Cathy O’Neil to talk about her newest book, “The Shame Machine: Who Profits in the New Age of Humiliation.” They highlight the pernicious influence of America’s “shame-industrial complex” as well as shame’s role in effecting social change. Follow Cathy: @mathbabedotorg.
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00:00.00
talknerdy
Well Kathy thank you so much for joining me today I am so excited to talk about your new book. The shame machine who profits in the new age of humiliation I think this is such an important topic. But even before we dive into the topic to the content.
00:02.72
Cathy O_Neil
Thanks for having me.
00:17.99
talknerdy
Want to get to know you and I think the big kind of pressing question is how does you know a Mathematician somebody who you know ah has a Ph D in math but has worked in a lot of like applied fields and also has been doing this sort of like public communication of Stem. How. Do you get onto this topic.
00:37.73
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, um, it is actually a pretty nerdy. Ah story. So appropriately. So um, the first it basically I connected 2 dots and then I went from there so the first dot was when I was um.
00:43.35
talknerdy
Yes.
00:49.14
talknerdy
E.
00:56.94
Cathy O_Neil
Interviewing teachers. Um for my previous book weapons of math destruction. So these teachers were getting fired or being denied tenure which is tantamount to being fired. Um based on an algorithm that nobody could explain to them and we later found up was mostly like a random number generator.
01:04.62
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:15.60
Cathy O_Neil
It was awful and and I so I'd interview these teachers and I was like well did you ask anyone to explain the score and they were like oh yeah, well I asked but they told me it was math and I wouldn't understand it and I was like to the teachers and I was like well what did you do? then? you know.
01:25.49
talknerdy
What to these features. Wow.
01:33.61
Cathy O_Neil
And because ah as a Mathematician I was like that is some bullshit you know, um and that is in fact, if someone said that to me I would laugh I would say like dude if you can't explain it. It's your problem. Not mine, you know, but that's not what these teachers did and I also had a Principal friend who.
01:44.74
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
01:52.27
Cathy O_Neil
Similarly I asked her get me the formula because her friends her teachers were getting you know didn I tenure and she was like well she had to ask 3 times at the different levels of the department of education in New York City and each time she was told like you really don't you don't want to see this white paper. You don't want to see it. It's math you want understand it and so. After you know hearing this a bunch of times I realized this is not just so you know and by the way she persisted because I was asking her I was like no I want to see that but the fact that she kept kept on getting told the same thing that the teachers getting kept and getting told made me realize number 1.
02:18.25
talknerdy
Bright right.
02:30.60
Cathy O_Neil
That it works in general. It's a systemic mechanism to get people to stop talking and number two that it's like shame. It's really math shaming people. It's It's basically saying you're too ignorant to be you know, included in this conversation. So just take your you know pencils and leave the building and it was.
02:33.51
talknerdy
Right.
02:49.74
Cathy O_Neil
Very powerful I would even argue that the the power of the this terrible algorithm called the value added model for teachers wasn't wasn't statistical. It was a bad statistical model. It was the power that made it actually function was shame and I was like Wow that's.
03:03.98
talknerdy
Um, yeah.
03:09.73
Cathy O_Neil
And it was easy for me to observe that again because I didn't share that right I as a mathematician I don't share that vulnerability nobody can call me out for not knowing math but I just kind of observed that put it in my pockets. That's the first dot and then two years later I'm like. a summer or that the book is coming out 2016 and I'm I'm in this like I'm in the state because my brother who is a couple years older than me had just gotten diagnosed with diabetes. My dad was dying of diabetes I was ripe for getting diabetes and I was like oh my god what am I going to do you know diabetes sucks.
03:39.64
talknerdy
E.
03:46.29
Cathy O_Neil
Um, you know from the perspective of somebody who lived with you know, a sick father their whole lives. Um, and I was doing research on my on Google right? because I read an article that said that bariatric surgery could um, help you not get diabetes or even help you recover from diabetes.
03:50.43
talknerdy
Yeah.
04:05.60
Cathy O_Neil
And so I was trying to do research on this bariatric surgery different types where I could get it done and I was just inundated with fat shaming So um advertisements and of course Bariatric surgeries are technically weight loss surgeries I mean that's what but they are primarily in fact, considered even though I don't know why because they work better for.
04:10.82
talknerdy
Um, yeah, yeah.
04:24.42
Cathy O_Neil
Against diabetes and against weight believe it or not they work well for weight but they work even better for diabetes. Um little known fact because why because you know because sort of you can sell it better if it's a weight loss thing. It's just it's so weird. But anyway the point is.
04:27.36
talknerdy
Oh interesting.
04:41.78
Cathy O_Neil
I was inundated with this fat shaming messaging and at the end of each like research session which I did like every day for like 3 or 4 days I just wanted to crawl into a hole and die like I really felt like I felt like oh maybe I deserve to die of diabetes like maybe I'm just that's. Because I'm so fat and like I'm so fat and that's my fault and I was just like wait a second kathy you know like I I finally like was like what is happening to me and I looked I was like Kathy like you know you you're not ah fat shamable like you had that problem as a youth of course. But like you then you got a job and had.
05:00.88
talknerdy
Oh god.
05:18.83
Cathy O_Neil
Kids and you know your life was defined by more than your fatness and you know this is my internal dialogue but I'm like yeah, but but I feel really just to like only defined by my fatness right now and maybe that's why I deserve to die you know what? I mean it was so bad and.
05:24.44
talknerdy
Yeah.
05:31.91
talknerdy
Yeah.
05:36.39
Cathy O_Neil
And it it. Also it was like this thing or it's like it felt so bad. It felt made me feel so unlovable and and worth unworthy that I was willing to to pay whatever it would take to make that feeling go away and I realized that like that's exactly what was happening to me like I was being shamed and told to buy something um like.
05:52.91
talknerdy
So that's the connection right there this like this pervasive social pressure that that we internalize and it really runs the gamut which we'll be diving into all the different kind of manifestations and it's direct link to sort of our cap.
05:55.74
Cathy O_Neil
The exactly. Yes.
06:12.90
talknerdy
But a list system.
06:13.40
Cathy O_Neil
Well exactly I mean it's not just about making money off of me which was of course exactly what was happening at that moment. It's also about maintaining power and status quo which was happening to the teachers. But you know.
06:20.89
talknerdy
A a.
06:29.50
Cathy O_Neil
Long story short was very long story and I'm sorry it took so long but the short version of it is like that was the second dot I was like oh I am the teachers now like I get it I get that feeling where you're going to seed your ah your rights your see your certainly your money like see like basically I will do anything to make this feeling stop.
06:30.27
talknerdy
No, no, no.
06:40.56
talknerdy
Yeah.
06:47.65
Cathy O_Neil
How do I make this feeling stop. Yes I will do anything and it and I was like I get it now I really get it and as soon as I got it as soon as I saw shame as the underlying power for both of those events which are very different events I was like wait where else is the power of shame present.
06:59.61
talknerdy
Moon.
07:05.47
Cathy O_Neil
That I haven't noticed before and so I started I started thinking through it more and I like that's when I became obsessed with this notion of like where is shame when is it happening and of course importantly, when is it appropriate because as a member of Occupy Wall street which I was after the financial crisis I had been working at a hedge fund. Um, you know we use shame we we attempted to use shame but it was ah in my opinion appropriate. You know we were trying to shame people. You know in the government to like bail out main street and not just the banks. You know what? I mean so I also wanted to ask that question like like when is it appropriate and then of course I ultimately also wanted to ask the question when does it work.
07:41.43
talknerdy
Yeah.
07:50.45
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, you know it's ah one of the things that we haven't mentioned yet because we're just getting started but I um have to assume is going to be an important part of the conversation and I want to sort of like. Want to caveat it first or maybe not caveat it but sort of explain where I'm coming from as somebody who ism right now I'm working on my ph d in clinical psychology and I'm sort of right at the tail end I just matched to internship I'm so excited. Um, so I've got just one more year to go before doctor. Um, it's been a long slog but I work.
08:13.16
Cathy O_Neil
Um, yay.
08:25.36
talknerdy
Right now I work in a cancer center. So I do Psychotherapy with with ah patients from every um, every kind of ah stage from early diagnosis of cancer to active treatment to recurrence to survivorship and and very often end of life as well which is kind of the the area where I like to specialize.
08:27.83
Cathy O_Neil
Is.
08:43.46
talknerdy
But I've also worked in the foster care system I'm about to start my um internship at an outpatient gerontology. Um, ah, counseling center. So so for older adults and one of the things that I see that's so pervasive is that layer of shame.
08:52.00
Cathy O_Neil
Earth's.
08:59.41
Cathy O_Neil
The earth.
09:01.49
talknerdy
In Mental Health treatment mental illness and really a big part of what I work on with my patients is normalizing and validating their experience to try to minimize some of the shame that they feel for being depressed for being sick for ah. Crying or having panic attacks and and there's like a ah big so kind of layer of shame. That's I think linked to the stigma around mental illness. So I bring that up first because I think that might guide some of my questions today but I also want to say one of the things that we haven't touched on yet in this first 10 minutes but I think we'll be very.
09:27.24
Cathy O_Neil
Sure.
09:36.71
talknerdy
Relevant especially to the conversation you were having around math and shaming people about their um sort of like stem literacy is good. God is this not also a gendered problem I mean is is I I can't help but feel like so much of the power dynamic.
09:46.40
Cathy O_Neil
Ah.
09:53.11
talknerdy
That has persisted throughout human history is not just linked to of course physical violence and actual means of control of women through you know through violent means but also through shame through belittlement through minimizing a woman's voice. A woman's power and and making her feel. Bad about having a voice right? It's like from the beginning like this is also gaslighting right? like this is a form of mental Manipulation. It's not just it's ah it's a way to maintain a power structure.
10:13.36
Cathy O_Neil
Oh yeah I mean start with Eve this the story of eve. Yeah.
10:26.98
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, no, exactly gaslighting is the right frame I mean from my perspective. It is a shifting the burden of a societywide problem onto the victims of that problem. Um, and we see that very consistently. Um, you know I I wrote ah a. Wrote a book called weapons of math destruction about the way algorithms did that but 1 of the one of the algorithms I studied extensively was was an algorithm that sort of predicted somebody's risk of being rearrested and then shifted the blame on the fact that they will.
10:48.78
talknerdy
Mean.
11:02.86
Cathy O_Neil
They would be profiled by the police in the future onto them and sent them to prison longer typically but it was fascinating to see what sort of the data said because these these scoring systems were built um to be accurate. Not to be fair. To be you know to? who's going to be profiled and and I always when I talk to audiences about it I always ask them.. What do you think is a predictable feature of some somebody that will make them rearrested in the future and of course there's poverty and there's a lot of there's a lot of proxies for race. But so the 2 of them that just.
11:31.99
talknerdy
A.
11:38.87
Cathy O_Neil
Kind of shock people who haven't thought through this are addiction like if you have an addiction. It's not going to be treated in prison. Um, it's going to. It's It's just you're gonna be a criminal. You're gonna be criminalized for that addiction. Um, and then mental health status like if you have an untreated mental health problem.
11:50.87
talknerdy
Yeah.
11:58.40
Cathy O_Neil
You will be criminalized. You will be punished and you will be rearrested in the future and punished more um and it it is just what we do. It's what our how our system works and it is fundamentally a violation of our dignity.
12:03.90
talknerdy
Yep.
12:09.30
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, and I mean I you know not for nothing I think I personally believe that it's ah it's a um function of our system not prioritizing mental health or even honestly medical health treatment because we don't we we. We look at treatment from a capitalist perspective right? We don't see it as a basic human right? So We don't prioritize equal access to treatment and you know when we kind of shut down the Asylum system for I think arguably good reasons but we we never came up with a sort of backup.
12:43.90
Cathy O_Neil
Right.
12:45.36
talknerdy
We end up with these people. All of the people who have profound and pervasive mental Illness. You know the ones that make it hard to stay on medication that that require a lot of intense treatment. Ah there is no safety net for them Now. So they're living on the streets and this is why you see a lot of.. Ah, people with psychotic disorders. A lot of people dealing with being unhoused just constantly rotating through the prison system because they're getting arrested for things like loitering like they're getting arrested for being homeless.
13:13.54
Cathy O_Neil
Yes, yes, exactly and then when the algorithm uses that as a way of predicting that they will be like rearrested it actually sort of somehow codifies it into the system and and to be clear the the point I'm trying to make with this shame and I do have an entire chapter about like.
13:23.83
talknerdy
Yeah.
13:32.38
Cathy O_Neil
But shaming people like with addictions because it is so prevalent. Um, ah the point I'm trying to make is that this problem isn't improved by blaming the victims. It is made worse not just for those people.
13:32.79
talknerdy
He.
13:42.65
talknerdy
Absolutely.
13:46.57
Cathy O_Neil
But for all of us because we all, you know we're all we're all stuck in this cycle of assuming it can't happen to us so you know that's one of the reasons we do it by the way we shame the victims of these problems because it helps us feel safe from those problems. Um, and.
14:00.20
talknerdy
Right? Somehow somehow distant and or and even like above those problems.
14:05.30
Cathy O_Neil
Exactly because we stigmatize it we want we want to think of ourselves as clean and those people as dirty and it just keeps us them at arm's length but what it does to us is it prevents us first of all from having ah ah like a sort of a cohesive.
14:11.26
talknerdy
Asked.
14:23.84
Cathy O_Neil
View of humanity number 1 Um, which is already a kind of impoverishment but it also means that we are completely unprepared when it is close to us including when it's our kids when it's ourselves and we we have this automatic.
14:31.28
talknerdy
Yeah.
14:38.97
Cathy O_Neil
Self-shaming mechanism that goes into effect at that moment.
14:40.66
talknerdy
Yeah that's that that is it's like a negative feedback loop it becomes exacerbated by the social messages and by the messages from friends and family and then we internalize it even more and then it just builds upon itself and you know when I was interviewing for internship I did interview with 1 location which. I'm actually kind of bummed I didn't end up there but I'm really thrilled about where I did end up because it was my my top choice. Um, but it was a location that was like at an hivaidsclinic combined with an opiate recovery clinic and um, one of the things that we talked about at length in interview is the importance of the sort of. Recovery model a much more modern and sort of progressive model about safe use about sort of understanding that part of the process of overcoming or of living with addiction is you are gonna use. You are going to fall off the sort of you know wagon you are going to have these moments and it's really about integrating that into your life as opposed to this kind of historical very abstinence only approach that we did to addiction treatment which was kind of like no tolerance.
15:44.92
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah.
15:51.40
talknerdy
Can't touch it if you do It's like because of a moral failure of your own and what a growth way that we used to treat addiction. Yeah.
15:54.29
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, and if you don't mind I think ah if you don't mind I'm going to step backwards a little bit and talk about my understanding of when is shame appropriate because I think it it fits very nicely into what you just said which I completely agree with.
16:06.44
talknerdy
Sure yeah.
16:12.90
Cathy O_Neil
So I was thinking through like when does it make sense to shame somebody because again like I think some shaming punching up shame I call it when you're holding power to account. Um, you know hey.
16:20.73
talknerdy
Yeah, like shaming anti vax rhetoric coming from people who have an agenda to try to basically decimate public health like yes we need to make it so that it's embarrassing to believe in that that kind of stuff because if it's embarrassing to leave another. Okay, yeah, yeah.
16:30.10
Cathy O_Neil
Well, we're going to come back to the anti-vaine in a moment but I would I was yeah, no, it is um it is a whole other thing because it depends on the context whether I would call that punching up or not and and and we're.
16:40.12
talknerdy
Ah, the whole other thing. Yeah. Oh and who's the power player. Yeah, but go ahead, go ahead. Oh right? right? right.
16:49.20
Cathy O_Neil
And whether it would work or not. But anyway going back to this idea of when is it when is it appropriate I came up with this lens to see appropriate shame as voice and choice and choice is easier to imagine. It's like to what extent is a person you are shaming for misbehaving by the way like you're always sham.
16:57.31
talknerdy
Okay.
17:06.40
Cathy O_Neil
So Shame someone with respect to a rule that that you think you think they've broken so we can call that a norm. Um, and so you're always,. There's always a rule in in mind when you're shaming someone and the question about choice is do they have the choice to follow the rule because if you're. Shaming them for something. They actually don't have a choice about like being fat or being poor or being addicted. Um, that's just it's Bullying. It's not actually reasonable and I will argue of course I will ah ah concede that like there is some amount of control you have over being fat but not as.
17:39.90
talknerdy
And not everybody either like you? yeah.
17:40.40
Cathy O_Neil
Dearly as much as people think like maybe and not everybody. It's kind of like smoking like some people didn't have that much trouble quitting smoking other people really do have trouble quitting smoking So a really better but more nuanced way of saying is you actually don't know how much control people have but less the.
17:48.68
talknerdy
And here and.
17:55.80
talknerdy
And also by the way sorry to interject. But when it comes to food. It's ah it's ah it's a whole other layer of complication because with things like smoking. We can take an abstinence approach like when I quit smoking I had to draw a line in the sand and say I can't I can't even just have one if I just have one. I'm tempting fate and it's going to be really really difficult but you can't do that with food you you have to develop a healthy relationship with food and for some people that has nothing to do with their weight either. You know they they eat the exact same number of calories. They have the exact same food habits and they way more. You know that's and.
18:18.48
Cathy O_Neil
So yeah.
18:29.93
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, yeah, suffice to say it's complicated. It's different for each of these examples. But I guess my the the principle I wanted to bring to bear is that when you're when you're exaggerating, somebody's ability to choose to behave shaming them on that is inappropriate. Um.
18:32.58
talknerdy
There's so much. Yeah, it's a complicated issue.
18:49.91
Cathy O_Neil
And so that's the first and the second one is does does somebody have a voice do they have the right to defend themselves to explain themselves to be seen improving their behavior and to be tracked to improving their behavior. So ah, what I really mean by that is is there a chance for them to be redeemed and we can go into examples of that.
19:06.20
talknerdy
E.
19:08.20
Cathy O_Neil
As well. Which is the the short version is never happens online. Um, but I'm going back to your example like with abstinence only rehabs say um, it is really it's.
19:10.65
talknerdy
Right? right. Yeah.
19:22.37
Cathy O_Neil
It's an unreasonable expectation which which is perdicated on the idea that this is a choice that someone's making and that they're being weak if they if they slide back into yes whereas we know it's It's you know we know how difficult it actually is we know how how.
19:27.27
talknerdy
Right right? that it's all just a willpower issue.
19:40.64
Cathy O_Neil
How much our brains have changed by the time we're addicted to various kinds of drugs and and we also know that the ah the the percentage of people capable of really never never using again is really small but it's bigger if you if you use medically treat assisted treatment.
19:43.80
talknerdy
We had.
19:55.54
talknerdy
Yeah.
19:57.83
Cathy O_Neil
And methadone type things but you know these are these are shame-based regiments where they'll be like oh you can't just replace 1 addiction for another shame on you. You have to be moral and they make it it into a moral choice and that is inherently shaming inherently shaming so and the final thing I would say is that um.
20:08.50
talknerdy
Yeah, um.
20:16.16
Cathy O_Neil
You know one of the ways I I really?? Um I Really want one of the things I really wanted my readers to take away from this is that this is not just an individual thing like that they they feel like this is Inappropriate. It's inappropriate for me to shame that person because it's you know. It's not really their choice or voice I mean I do want people to think through that like next time they're tempted to shame but it's really what I want to talk about is like the institutionalization of shame. So the institutionalization of shame in the Rehab system in the in the prison system.
20:37.96
talknerdy
Right? right? right. Yeah, yeah.
20:51.60
Cathy O_Neil
Um, even on social media where I think the institutionalization of shame is in the design itself. It gets us to shame each other and like lob shame and outrage cycles at each other because why because the longer we spend on Facebook the more we click on ads so it like behooves them to design.
20:55.16
talknerdy
He.
21:09.89
Cathy O_Neil
There's space for us to be shamed driven and it is.
21:12.29
talknerdy
Right? because they know they know that shame is such a pervasive and um like it it it cuts to the core in a way that a lot of emotions don't necessarily. And it's able to like you said keep us engaged I mean what? what is an Instagram filter other than a way to release or mitigate the shame that a young woman feels when she's online for only a second. That's one of those things that I think.
21:46.36
Cathy O_Neil
Oh that's interesting that you mention that I mean I would even argue the opposite I'd say those things are are meant to increase your shame because it increases your yourself your self-consciousness and it also increases your notion and this is going back to my definition of like inappropriateness.
21:48.39
talknerdy
You know? ah.
21:57.47
talknerdy
Oh yeah, that's true.
22:05.71
Cathy O_Neil
It increases this notion of choice like if you if you just you know you have the choice to look beautiful like if you're if you're which the flip side of if you don't look beautiful. You have failed and you should be ashamed. So it's exactly yeah.
22:10.72
talknerdy
Yeah.
22:17.18
talknerdy
And I think those are two sides of the same coin to be honest I think that's that's the entire sort of beauty industry as well. It's this and even when you look at things like like um, you know facial cleansers like I could go in my shower right now and look at the sort of marketing on all of the products and they're going to say things like.
22:24.65
Cathy O_Neil
Yes.
22:36.57
talknerdy
Unclogs pores. Okay so a clogged Pore What does that even mean like so you you are dirty you you are dirty with dirt and you need to purify yourself.
22:42.90
Cathy O_Neil
Ah, yes, well exactly I would I would my favorite example in my book along these lines is the Vajasil product for teenage girls called omv exclamation point.
22:52.41
talknerdy
Ah, ah.
22:57.19
Cathy O_Neil
And the idea is like you're supposed to say like not omg oh my God But oh my Vagina exclamation point and what it does is it fosters the notion that your vagina is too smelly and you need to keep it unsmelly with a deodorant which then by the way gives you used to infections. So then you'll need vage cell. You know what I mean and it's like this. Yes.
23:06.64
talknerdy
Yeah. Right? right? That's like all douche like the concept of do like cleaning yourself when when anybody who's ever spoken to a gynecologist is like do not douche douching is not a thing you don't need it. You're not so supposed to do it.
23:16.87
Cathy O_Neil
So.
23:20.14
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, go do it just exactly but the idea being we're going to instill shame in you and then sell you a product to try to make you feel better and I feel like that's what those filters do.
23:29.98
talknerdy
Exactly Yeah, that's that temporary relief of the shame that's being actively induced and it's it really is temporary. It's just a little dopamine hit in order to kind of keep you going and it really it really concerns me when I think about the.
23:37.32
Cathy O_Neil
Exactly.
23:48.74
talknerdy
Global effect because I think there's 2 different ways to look at this right? There's this sort of less pernicious shame is ever present is ever ubiquitous and then there are the industries or the institutions that are sort of. Capitalizing on that they know it's there. So if they can tap into it and utilize it to their advantage. Okay, and then there's the even more pernicious. We're actually going to develop and create and implement and exacerbate the shame we're going to actually physically induce it so that then we can try to. Give you that hit to relieve it and you'll pay us for it and that to me is like extra gross.
24:22.57
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, it's you know and I'll just add another little gross element now that we're speaking on those terms like 1 of the things that really grosses me out about the modern weight loss industry is that there.
24:28.40
talknerdy
Yeah.
24:37.58
Cathy O_Neil
Always claiming that diets don't work and we all know that and that's why what? they're doing is not actually a diet and then it's a diet so it's like this. It's like so patronizing. It's like concern trolling like we just want you to be healthy. You know.
24:41.54
talknerdy
Um, right.
24:52.72
Cathy O_Neil
Bullshit and then they accompany that with the same old kind of crappy statistics that quote unquote prove that their diet program works which they refuse to call a diet so similarly with like the.
25:00.59
talknerdy
Um, yeah.
25:05.63
Cathy O_Neil
Ov exclamation point by Vaja So they they start out by saying you know a period should never be stigmatized. We believe in the beauty of all women by the way you smell bad and you should buy our product So it's like this completely fake like flip of like oh we are Anti-sham here's the shame.
25:14.77
talknerdy
Um, yeah me.
25:25.16
Cathy O_Neil
This is our product. It is based entirely on shame.
25:26.40
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think that that's you know that you see that too in like we said and like the facial cleansers and the and the makeup and the you know all of the different ways that we so these different sort of organizations these different um corporations buy into this machine which is let's make. Especially young women but also older women as well. But really everybody on the planet like we'll figure out a way to tap into your specific insecurities and and let's um, let's figure out exactly what it is that you are most likely.
25:48.34
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah era.
26:03.48
talknerdy
To feel ashamed about and then let's offer you a panacea a palliation for that. Let's offer you. Ah.
26:07.18
Cathy O_Neil
And then and then when when it fails when this product that you've bought to alleviate shame doesn't alleviate the shame or actually exacerbates it. That's your fault. It's you know, completely off I don't think weight watchers would exist without return customers. You know.
26:16.92
talknerdy
Right? right? right? It's so they're completely off the hook. It's like a win-win situation for them right? yeah.
26:27.16
Cathy O_Neil
Um, yeah, and and to the point of women versus men I agree with you that women are very often. The target of the classic. So I would call the classic traditional shame industrial complex which is you know skin Creams anti-aging skin creams and the diet industry and the cosmetics and all of.
26:37.27
talknerdy
E.
26:45.15
Cathy O_Neil
The the body tuning app for making yourself look thinner online. That's definitely gendered. Um, one of the things though I that I added that I also addressed in my book which I don't think is as gendered ah is the previgen which is also total Claptrap Pseudoscience This idea.
27:03.18
talknerdy
What's previgen m.
27:04.41
Cathy O_Neil
Previgen you'll see the commercials if you haven't already. It's like for older people who want to stay alert and it's supposed to help you with your memory and there's like 0 evidence that it does that but it's selling it and a lot of the people in the in the commercial are men who are just like I wasn't feeling a sharp but now I take previgen and it works for me. Um.
27:12.86
talknerdy
Oh god.
27:22.18
talknerdy
Yeah.
27:23.93
Cathy O_Neil
And again, it's like you know it's sort of like pretending that it's not about shame pretending it. It's about like so self-improvement and kind of a wellness kind of notion but it's actually like first shame the person for being old and senile and then you know which is using like the most ridiculous ages tropes.
27:36.70
talknerdy
Yeah, and.
27:42.32
Cathy O_Neil
And then make them pay to stop feeling that way.
27:43.38
talknerdy
Yeah, and I think you're you're right? We see even a very specific. Um I guess other gendered um approach with like boner pills and like you know testosterone treatments and like all of these different ways. Yeah eid all these different ways to like tap into Mens shame around like virility and youth and.
27:54.88
Cathy O_Neil
Yep E d.
28:03.20
Cathy O_Neil
Oh yeah.
28:03.37
talknerdy
Vigor and Vim and all of these things. It's just a different sort of social um pressure.
28:07.94
Cathy O_Neil
Um, and to be clear like I didn't have a big enough book I mean didn't I couldn't fit all that stuff in um what I really intend with this book is to build a lens. You know if I if I could you know if I could get the people who read this book to be like.
28:11.91
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, ah.
28:25.16
Cathy O_Neil
Oh I recognize what's happening I see this I see this which I didn't see before but it used to be invisible to be now. It's as clear as day you are shaming that person for the sake of profit or you're shaming that person to silence them so you keep your power and if I can.
28:28.90
talknerdy
Yeah there.
28:41.98
Cathy O_Neil
Get to that point I will have succeeded and people don't even have to even necessarily agree with my principles I mean I think they're pretty sound but there might be gray areas but I want this conversation to be much more much like much more explicit about shame and I want to like improve our terms so that we can.
28:49.89
talknerdy
Yes.
29:01.69
Cathy O_Neil
We can. Ah we can really figure out what is it appropriate to shame anti-vaxers you know to your to your early example I mean and because I actually don't think it always is so okay, let let me let me rephrase.
29:05.75
talknerdy
Yes. I think it's appropriate to shame like the Andrew Wakefields of the world I don't think it's appropriate to shame the victims of Andrew Wakefield yeah
29:21.24
Cathy O_Neil
It's probably it's probably appropriate to shame antivaxers because it is a voice. There's probably a choice there right? you could You could take a vax you know? um, but the question I want to ask is will it will it work will will it work and and I think the answer is typically no.
29:27.27
talknerdy
Right? Will it? Yeah does it have an outcome.
29:37.94
Cathy O_Neil
And and I think the answer is typically no for will it work on social media to to improve somebody's behavior by shaming them and the the reason is I think for ah for shame to work. There has to be a sort of longstanding relationship and that's why that's why it works sometimes with with shaming up. You know when you're shaming power.
29:54.48
talknerdy
Nay.
29:57.78
Cathy O_Neil
Like this is you're that person's probably still going to be in power in 3 years and if they haven't changed their behavior. You'll notice and they'll know that you know you know.
30:03.85
talknerdy
Yeah, and that's why I think that's why I I always make that distinction on the other ah podcast that I work on the skeptics guide to the universe. We often talk about you know, pseudoscience anti-science rhetoric things like you know anti-vax sentiment and we do make a really strong distinction between. Like I said the andrew wakefields the Jenny Mccarthy's the the power brokers. The people who have a voice and who actually are doing this for ah for like agenda reasons like they stand to gain from from um, continuing this rhetoric I think those are the people we should be shaming but the people who sadly get caught in their web.
30:24.21
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah.
30:29.78
Cathy O_Neil
Yes.
30:37.53
Cathy O_Neil
I Totally agree. Yeah.
30:41.98
talknerdy
The the everyday people who read something online and then they start questioning whether or not they're going to be safe. Those are victims. We shouldn't be shaming the victims of the rhetoric.
30:49.42
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah I agree and I'm glad you said it that way I mean I am all for shaming Alex Jones you know and be beyond shaming out. He's like yeah a piece shit. Um, but the people that watch a show and are are buying into that stuff I feel like look.
30:55.50
talknerdy
Right? Yes, use a piece of shit.
31:08.94
Cathy O_Neil
They're probably not going to be swayed by shame. Um, if you if you want to approach them and talk about a specific thing like vaccination. Um you first have to find out where where are they on the vaccination like belief or even receptivity. In other words, you have to check? Do they agree with this norm before you shame them with respect to it and if they are not in disagreement with it then you have a chance but then in order to appeal to them if they have so far, not gotten a vaccine and this is just a you know a scenario I'm building out but the point is that it's ah it's generalizable.
31:28.12
talknerdy
Leaving me.
31:45.25
Cathy O_Neil
If the norm is possibly shared then you appeal to them at the level of hey we're in the same community and we both care about this community and I know you don't personally feel like doing this but it is good for the community and you have to be able to make that case and in order to make that case you actually have to be in a shared community.
32:00.45
talknerdy
Yeah.
32:02.10
Cathy O_Neil
You can't just be a drive by Jerk saying hey you you suck you know because people exactly and that's exactly the point exactly the point like there is for every sort of strongly held and conflicting norm in this country like vaccinations.
32:05.62
talknerdy
No, because then you're just going to see a backfire effect. They're just going to dig in further.
32:21.84
Cathy O_Neil
There is a community out there that will will house you and make you feel victimized if someone tries this and and it's like that's not where we want to send people. You know if you if you think about it, you're like I only have a certain amount of you know a moment in my life. Do I want to be spending them sending people.
32:31.17
talknerdy
No.
32:41.63
Cathy O_Neil
To take ah to take solace in in the in those communities where it's like yeah, you really told you really own the libs or whatever it is. It's just if you have better uses for your time but I will say by the way going back to your point of like dopamine hits I interviewed a psychologist named Molly Crockett who who.
32:47.64
talknerdy
Dread.
32:57.00
talknerdy
Anna.
33:00.15
Cathy O_Neil
Who Ah, who does lab studies on these sort of um these outrage cycles and she found that people get dopamine hits like pleasure center hits when they are outrage and punch. You know punch out at at at the targets of outrage. So these I would call them shaming outrage cycles. Um.
33:11.73
talknerdy
Yeah.
33:19.91
Cathy O_Neil
Which typically serve to only push people into their corners and into these like dark communities where they with a fellow defiant people are hanging out with them. Um, that actually makes us happy and it's really that's like the thing that's yeah.
33:31.50
talknerdy
At least momentarily. Yeah.
33:35.80
Cathy O_Neil
And well it's not just momentarily we get likes and retweets from our friends that makes us feel righteous and I'm not saying we're not right sometimes sometimes we're right? but the question isn't whether we're right, The question is are we doing something useful, um, are we actually helping someone help their community or are we just performing.
33:37.77
talknerdy
We wanted.
33:55.13
Cathy O_Neil
Ah, virtue that makes us like momentarily feel good and our and our community support us. So That's one of the questions I ask and and so I agree with you though at at the end of the day you absolutely can punch up at somebody who's profiting off of misinformation and is like gaining status and keeping status. But the people who are victimized by those people are probably not the targets. You're looking for.
34:16.11
talknerdy
Right? And it sounds like there it it becomes this very nuanced and very context dependent. But even Beyond Context dependent. Um, there's an ambivalence here to this basic question of.. Ah, let me let me think of ah a good example like flat Eartherss So when we talk about flat Earth rhetoric. There is an argument to be made that as an institution or as a cultural phenomenon we have to maintain a certain level of um, shame.
34:36.17
Cathy O_Neil
Ah, yeah, so.
34:53.30
talknerdy
Around Really really really bizarre conspiratorial beliefs because if if it's not sort of embarrassing to believe that it may take on more of a mainstream. Um, ah I don't know hold and that's really scary for an informed. Populist right? Like we want the populist to be at least to some extent making decisions based upon evidence and so there's a certain level of like extreme Kookie beliefs that there is a certain amount of shame that it seems like the institution. The people that are engaged. Are like ok that's beyond the pale that that's sort of like a threshold. Um and they feel justified in that but on the flip side as you said, many people who believe in in flat Earth Ah, kind of like you know pseudoscience are they have that sort of we're in the know everybody else has the you know The. Wool over their eyes Their're Sheeple they've been duped but we're the ones who actually know and it's very empowering for them and so it's like how do you find that sort of that balance like we don't want to create more incels but we also don't want to go yeah being an incel is totally socially appropriate. And we don't want to make you feel shame about that at all. So It's almost like this this double edge sword of like let's make sure that we maintain a very strong stance that like being a violent anti-woman incel on the internet is not acceptable.
36:09.42
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, this.
36:24.73
talknerdy
While at the same time knowing that the more we say it's not acceptable. The more people are going to become radicalized by it.
36:29.67
Cathy O_Neil
Right? Well yeah, no, it's ah it's a good. It's a fair question I I will make the case that people Misunderstand what? what these dark societies I'll call them the incels the flat-earers the 8 qanon.
36:42.70
talknerdy
A right.
36:47.56
Cathy O_Neil
I Think they misunderstand what people get out of that. Um, and I read this book Beyond Hate I think it was called um about you know, hate groups and it was a ah man a man wrote it who who who works with ah, almost always boys and men who have emerged from from far right? Radical hate groups that are often like.
36:55.11
talknerdy
Yeah.
37:07.42
Cathy O_Neil
You know, ah gangs essentially um, ah white white ah power groups et etc and he he says like consistently the people who emerged from these groups really didn't buy into the ideology at all. They just wanted friends. They wanted camaraderie.
37:08.83
talknerdy
Yeah.
37:23.48
talknerdy
Bright.
37:27.33
Cathy O_Neil
They wanted to feel like they belonged. They had been abused as kids they they had just not. They had not managed to have the social connections that made them happy and they found that kind of community in those groups and the ideology was something they were willing to swallow in order to feel belonging.
37:44.77
talknerdy
Right? And it was empowering for them right to have those friends and to have that that role this new social role.
37:46.78
Cathy O_Neil
And I just I Just of course it was empowering right? and I think if you really look at it that way even with incels and I obviously disagree with incels I I wrote a whole chapter about incels and and their ideology is really messed up.
37:56.47
talknerdy
Um, right.
38:03.72
Cathy O_Neil
It stems from Loneliness it stems from this ridiculous notion of what it makes a man in this country. Um, but I will say that our choices are are Gram Our choices are shame them and push them further away from you into those groups or don't shame them.
38:17.44
talknerdy
Yeah.
38:22.42
Cathy O_Neil
And give them an opportunity to emerge eventually and become ah have normal friendships. Those are your options your options are not to talk somebody out of that stuff because ah you know unless they ask for that conversation which of course. But if you if you start with like shame on you, You're not going to.. You're not getting anywhere because the whole I mean especially with the incels the entire raison d'etre inside the incels is to um is to like to protect away from people being pulled away from Incels. So They have this whole like. Inner ideology about like here's what you say to someone who tells you that you know we're wrong and it's like very well Defended. You should think of it as it as a highly defended. Um terrible place to be um and you could only hope that the people are like they eventually lose interest because they meet somebody who's. Who's not at all up like that and they're just like oh I like that person I don't need this anymore because it is It is a kind of um, desperate option. But sometimes it's people's only option and by shaming them. You make it them feel even more that way. Yeah.
39:29.83
talknerdy
Yeah I mean it's I see a lot of parallels there with with all of the ah kind of psychological manipulation that we see in in cults right? like that there are these people who have found a group that accepts them.
39:39.30
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah.
39:45.49
talknerdy
They have also that also empowers them to have a voice and sometimes the more violent the more pernicious the more um disgusting the better and so now I can kind of. Dive deep into these aspects of my personality that were not acceptable previously I can kind of go to places very dark places and explore you know some of these very dark aspects of my. Of my base desires and I can do it in ah in a place where I'm fully accepted for who I am and I don't feel a lot of shame. Um and you know that can be a very empowering thing. But then when you're on the flip side of it right? like as a woman and in modern society who's like incels are you know and. Read read about incels. We don't have time to like really do the full background if you you don't know what they are but but um, you know involuntarily celibates like boys and men who are like pissed off that they can't get laid and really take it out on sort of like it's like misogyny times a million. Um.
40:31.17
Cathy O_Neil
Um, right.
40:43.94
Cathy O_Neil
11
40:47.38
talknerdy
But but at the same time. How do we maintain a sort of social um moral structure and code that says okay as much as I can sort of empathize and this is a very psychologist. This is like the psychologist dilemma right? because we are tasked with maintaining these roarian. Um, tactics when we sit down in a room with a in a therapy space with a patient so I have to maintain a non-judgmental stance I have to maintain sort of like radical empathy and that's not easy to do when you're sitting across From. Let's say a convicted child molester.
41:09.26
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah.
41:19.70
Cathy O_Neil
Oh 100% I would yeah and to be clear to be clear. Ah 2 things. First of all I don't envy your job your future job. Um.
41:21.74
talknerdy
It's not easy to do when your patient is racist but you have to.
41:32.45
Cathy O_Neil
Number 2 this is not a self- hope help book like I am not suggesting I have a solution to shame I don't have a solution to shame what I have is a lens to ah to identify unreasonable or and or unuseful shaming attempts I have ah ah a very strong. Um, ah.
41:33.53
talknerdy
Ah.
41:51.66
Cathy O_Neil
Urge to especially consider that at an institutional level at a systemic level at a level where people are gaining or maintaining power or gaining or ah gaining profit. Um, and so going just going to the incels as 1 example, um, it would be really hard for me. To be in the same room with an incel I would never I would never suggest my daughter dated in cell. There's nothing like that I'm suggesting that we you know and I would also say that um you know we should go after the people that are making money by hosting in sell for chat forums you know what? I mean like.
42:12.40
talknerdy
Right? right? right.
42:24.11
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:27.23
Cathy O_Neil
Let's look at it at this as a structural issue. Um you know and of course there are people who are who who dabble it in cells and are never going to do anything in real life that is evil or you know or really horrifying and so I Also want to leave their leave space for the fact. That you know there are just moments of all of our lives where we do stuff that that isn't Great. You know and but yet we need to have this space and the opportunity to redeem ourselves by simply leaving and going to a different place and that is our Choice. You know our choice is to is to Know. No longer, be part of that and that is what I'd love to see I would love to see the doors more opened for folks like that.
43:11.24
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no I agree. it's it's it's such a you know it's such a complex issue because of course there is at the 1 hand I think a radical view of full and total acceptance and and empathy. of all of humanity's peaks and valleys and and light and dark corners and at and then and at the other side of that spectrum. There's exactly this this concept that you grapple with in the book about sort of punching up versus punching out or punching down and I think that's an an important distinction.
43:45.30
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah.
43:50.56
talknerdy
Um, you know this idea and I know we've touched on it but we didn't really dive into it too deeply. But maybe you can help ah those who have never heard of those concepts of like punching up versus punching down sort of understand exactly what you mean.
44:01.49
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah I mean by punching down I I mean inappropriately shaming somebody so shaming somebody. Ah, who doesn't have the choice or doesn't have the voice and again choice doesn't have to be complete choice. Sometimes you have a small amount of will. Power ability there. But like if you are exaggerating their choice and and making it seem easy or something or if they don't have voice that means they can't defend themselves or they cannot be seen to improve that's that means that means it's no voice so you if you do that if you're shaming somebody with no choice and no voice or. 1 of those missing then that's punching down punching up is when they both have the choice and the voice and typically it's called up because typically they also have power you know, typically that's why you track them? Um, so I like to give the example of Sarah Huckabee Sanders being refused service at the.
44:43.96
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
44:54.88
Cathy O_Neil
Red hen in Virginia and lexing Virginia I actually had the chance to go there for dinner because I gave a talk in a nearby place and I talked to the people that did that you know and they were they were ah you know Sarah Huckabee senators at the time was the spokesperson for the president for president Trump.
45:11.46
talknerdy
A.
45:14.81
Cathy O_Neil
And they were like she's got to stop lying. You know we're we're going to. We're shaming her for for for misrepresenting truth right? and I'm like well that is her choice. You know she she chose to do that. So right on you got that 1 right? and by the way does she has a voice does the spokesperson for the white house have a voice. Yes, they do you know I mean.
45:21.11
talknerdy
Um, yeah.
45:30.26
talknerdy
Yeah, right? Yes, by definition they do? yeah.
45:34.76
Cathy O_Neil
By definition and so I was like right on that's appropriate and also I would I would agree with you like that she should be not lying you know and she is lying So it's a complete I would say that is sort of classic punching up and the reason I mentioned that example is because some of the people who are offended by it and we're defending it.
45:44.96
talknerdy
Yeah.
45:51.55
Cathy O_Neil
You know, like oh where did civil was where did civility go as if like like we ever had civility. Um, but they were they actually tried to compare it to believe it or not like black people being refused us you know food at a restaurant.
45:55.48
talknerdy
Rough.
46:04.74
talknerdy
First of all I totally believe that this group would do that because that's such a classic playbook of like southern strategy is to like flip it on its ear. Yeah yeah.
46:11.49
Cathy O_Neil
Right? So 1 exactly? Well what I like about my my my ah my framework though my framework of ah for choice and voice is that it that it it completely exposes that right? So black people being refused. Food service. Did they have a choice you know I mean no did they have a voice. No the point is they had no voice. The point is they were being silenced and they were being suppressed so it is just not the same thing. It's just not the same thing because of that.
46:33.28
talknerdy
Yeah, not at all, no.
46:42.25
talknerdy
Yeah.
46:46.25
Cathy O_Neil
Because of these aspects that I'm I'm talking about so that's punching down punching down is punching down on powerless people for things that they don't have a choice about namely the color of their skin punching up is punching up at somebody who should know better and we will be watching them.
47:00.95
talknerdy
I love the the choice and voice. It's such a simple ah kind of approach such a simple thing to remember, especially for people who do struggle with the parallel structure I think the sort of arguments that you often see especially on. Um, on the extreme ah and kind of entrenched right? like the reverse racism arguments like all of these sort of like antisocial justice arguments that almost have a ah Sheen of fairness and egalitarian um, ah. Ah motivation. But they don't right? We know that they don't because they because they they they break when we really start to investigate but out on the surface for some people you know an argument about reverse racism seems equitable. It seems fair. But once you really start to have that conversation about.
47:38.33
Cathy O_Neil
Oh.
47:56.83
talknerdy
Ah, voice and choice. It falls apart very quickly. Yeah.
47:57.85
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, that's the idea the idea is I don't want to just I don't want to just talk about 3 or like well quite a few maybe thirty forty examples of shame and whether it's appropriate I want people to leave with the the book thinking like now I have the tools to decide. Whether's.
48:05.38
talknerdy
Um.
48:15.36
Cathy O_Neil
When I ah witness shame whether it's appropriate and in particular whether I should I should target people with shame.
48:20.35
talknerdy
Right? And also I think how do I protect myself from those who are targeting me with shame right.
48:25.38
Cathy O_Neil
Yes, or at least how I do I understand them and to be just to to reiterate that I don't feel ah I don't feel like I have gotten through the shame you know like I'm still vulnerable to fat shaming. Um.
48:36.16
talknerdy
Me here.
48:42.18
Cathy O_Neil
But at least I will be able to recognize it I'll be like oh I see what you're doing there. You're you're trying to shame me for being fat by the way I don't have much of a choice about it. Blah Blah I can make the entire argument I can make them feel bad about them what they did and think twice for before doing it again. But I'm not claiming that this will actually not like.
48:59.97
talknerdy
Well I think the thing that's so important about this is that and and and this is something that I often um, find myself navigating with patients in in the therapy space.
49:00.56
Cathy O_Neil
Cure shame.
49:12.92
talknerdy
Is number one you know it's kind of pithy but we often say first comes insight then comes action. You can't do anything about something if you don't even recognize it's happening and the thing about shame is that it happens kind of below the radar. It's such a strong social influence.
49:19.23
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, and just.
49:26.42
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah feel.
49:28.39
talknerdy
That we just feel gross and we don't even know why and we blame ourselves for it and we don't even know why So you're right more important than even doing anything about it or knowing what to do which you know that that is an open-ended question is recognizing when it's happening so that you can at least say I don't really think I'm.
49:46.52
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, yeah, like.
49:46.75
talknerdy
Responsible right now I you know I I think this might be being done to me you know and I think that that's super important and then the second side of that which I mentioned at the very beginning is that you know a big part of what I do in Therapy is validate and normalize.
49:51.50
Cathy O_Neil
2 Yeah, so.
50:02.92
talknerdy
And when somebody says I don't know I just I didn't expect when I got my mastectomy that it would hit me this hard and like I you know it makes me feel like I'm a narcissist or I'm vapid but like it's really really emotionally detrimental that that I look different now and it's like well how could it not be think about the world you live in think about.
50:17.50
Cathy O_Neil
Um, yeah.
50:22.18
talknerdy
Every message you've received from the time you were born about your femininity and your motherhood and your value and your and so just just really really being able to make the implicit explicit can be really empowering for people I think.
50:23.48
Cathy O_Neil
Um, yeah.
50:35.23
Cathy O_Neil
I do I agree and you know I'm I'm a buddhist. So I believe that like being mindful and observing things and observing your reaction to things is the first step towards like softening that reaction over time I I just I just don't want to.
50:47.73
talknerdy
Um, yeah.
50:51.29
Cathy O_Neil
I Don't want to promise anybody that they're going to find the way to get past shame because I don't think that's you should believe someone who says that but I do right? in fact I would even I would even argue that like self-help books per se are shaming because they do.
50:55.78
talknerdy
Right? right? because then yeah, then then we're getting into like yeah like Tony Robbins like territory.
51:06.70
talknerdy
Of course they are near the Instagram filter there. Let me point out all the things that are wrong with you and now I have a way out of them.
51:09.26
Cathy O_Neil
Yes, because they do actually or even worse let me tell you this the 6 easy things to do in order to cure yourself of this problem wait you did those 6 easy things and you didn't cure yourself. That's you, that's your bad. You know like you should feel ashamed that you.
51:25.44
talknerdy
Yep yep.
51:28.58
Cathy O_Neil
Weren't successful. You know so it's yet another thing to feel um ah ashamed of in general. But yeah I mean listen go ahead.
51:36.38
talknerdy
And I can I ask if you if you grapple with and this is sort of you know I'd go there as an atheist you mentioned that you're buddhist. Um, this may or may not be comfortable or appropriate for some people but like this sort of religious industrial complex and how much shame is perpetuated within a lot of sort of organized religious structures.
51:59.85
Cathy O_Neil
Well, you know I I feel you know I could have I feel like there could be another book written um not by me because I'm not I'm not I don't know enough about different religions to do that to do do justice with it I do of course talk about the Catholic Church shaming victims of.
52:05.80
talknerdy
Um, um.
52:19.30
Cathy O_Neil
Of the you know abuse by priests which is just a classic example of like blaming and shaming the victim so that you can maintain power. Um, it is a really gross example and it's so it's so extreme that I felt like it needed to be addressed. But I would say.
52:24.49
talknerdy
Oh yeah, that's like a really gross example.
52:33.40
talknerdy
But the reason I bring it up is because you you mentioned this idea of like you did the 12 easy steps and you still you know are struggling with your weight shame on you and it makes me think about this idea that like well you just didn't pray hard enough. You know or like you just didn't.
52:40.96
Cathy O_Neil
Um, yeah, yes, yeah, no I mean there was this really excellent book I I read in preparation for writing my book So research called pure.
52:48.10
talknerdy
You just didn't believe strong enough and that's why you you didn't get that job.
53:00.50
Cathy O_Neil
And it was written by a woman who had ah you know, experienced an evangelical childhood where it was an extreme version of like sex shaming of women where she described this situation where as a young girl like maybe 15 or something she was like.
53:08.76
talknerdy
E.
53:18.60
Cathy O_Neil
Shown an oreo and like they s stampmped stomped the oreo on the floor and they're under their feet. We like the oreo is you and this is what happens if you have sex before marriage. You know what I mean and it was like so crazy and it was like the way she described like the the shame that was like burdened.
53:27.51
talknerdy
Yeah, wow.
53:37.76
Cathy O_Neil
To Young women. Um of all of the Misbehaving. Ah misbehavior of of men of all men of all ages like they were all somehow shifted all of responsibility was shifted onto girls and they were shamed for it. Um, like it was so extreme. Um, and I know that's not totally normal. But I Also know that's not totally unusual either. So I'm just making the point that there are there are deep deep chasms of of sort of endemic sort of built-in embedded shame in in certain types of religious institutions that I.
54:00.16
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
54:15.22
Cathy O_Neil
Just and it's It's definitely of that second type of like maintaining status quo maintaining power versus the profiting engines. But it's still deeply troubling.
54:23.88
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and sadly once again when we think about maintaining status quo and maintaining power historically and to a very large extent still today. Sadly, those power brokers are of a very particular persuasion. They are you know, generally white male Cis Heterosexual. You know, ah religious like they're like we could list a lot of things and anybody who is not within that power structure is very often. The target of shame that helps maintain that power structure.
54:59.31
Cathy O_Neil
I Totally agree and I would say that like it. It's a product of in some sense. It's just a product of power and you know we we It's baked in you'll see you'll see shaming opportunities jump up when somebody assumes power. So it's not just.
55:07.60
talknerdy
Right? It's almost unintentional. It's baked in.
55:18.80
Cathy O_Neil
Going to be the straight white guys but it it is for now mostly them? yes.
55:19.25
talknerdy
Right? Yeah, and for most of human history. It's sadly so so listen there's so much more we could talk about because like you said there are million examples and and really diving deep into it sort of the structure and the the institutional ah power dynamic that perpetuates. Shame. But of course everyone if you read the book. You're gonna you're gonna get this. We don't want to give everything away but Kathy before you go um, 2 things First is there anything that we didn't touch on that you feel like oh my god if we don't talk about that that what am I doing here and and second um. After that I have 2 closing questions that I ask everybody on the show. They're kind of big picture questions. So I'm curious if you're game for that. Um.
56:01.32
Cathy O_Neil
Well I guess so the the final thing I would impart is that I I do think that and I just I just did this and you know you somebody might disagree with me but I do think there are sort of natural phases of shame I call them the stage the 4 stages of shame which are like the the.
56:15.80
talknerdy
Is.
56:19.26
Cathy O_Neil
The first stage is when you're just like literally feel ashamed. It's very very painful. It feels like someone's punched you in the stomach then you have this moment of cognitive dissidence or maybe many moments where you're like wait but I'm a good person I can't be unlovable or unworthy and so you go into this second stage which is like.
56:23.67
talknerdy
Yeah.
56:36.75
talknerdy
Mean.
56:37.35
Cathy O_Neil
Denial Essentially you just are in denial about the shame issue for me that looked like never looking in a mirror because I just didn't want to think about my body right? but it it could also look like.
56:45.59
talknerdy
My.
56:49.18
Cathy O_Neil
Let's never teach critical Race theory and then we'll never never have to talk about our history of racism in this country. You know what I mean is it.
56:53.80
talknerdy
Right? Let's pass a law that says anything that's taught that makes children feel uncomfortable exactly and it's code for shaming white kids so that they don't have to feel like they are part of the system that harmed.
57:00.27
Cathy O_Neil
Right? By the way that's code for shame.
57:11.99
Cathy O_Neil
And I will just add that like if you if we're allowed to be proud of our history. We should also assume the shame of our history but it yes, but just just to just to finish that thought which is that.
57:12.32
talknerdy
Black kids historically and yikst.
57:18.70
talknerdy
Absolutely, That's how we don't make the same decisions again. That's how we learn from the past anyway car. Yeah.
57:30.99
Cathy O_Neil
What does that look like it. It means going into the third stage of shame which isn't going back to the first stage of just feeling shamed all the time. It's not sitting in shame which some people have said no, it's reckoning. So I call it the reckoning and the third stage of shame is when you reckon on a personal level like this is where I am this is how I got here.
57:41.68
talknerdy
A.
57:50.88
Cathy O_Neil
I tried dieting. It didn't work. You know I tried it again. It didn't work like I've gained weight blah blah blah and I'm not going to I'm not going to feel like I should go on another diet. You know it's like a personal reckoning and then the final final final stage or at the level of the country and and and white sham. It's like. Yes, we did have slaves yes we did. We did? Um, we did institute Jim Crow and yes, we still have racism. It's it's it's institutionalized and we need to do something about it and so that's the fourth stage which is taking on the system that put you there in the first place. So for me that would be like writing this book and like.
58:15.86
talknerdy
Yeah.
58:28.77
Cathy O_Neil
Talking about like the weight loss industry itself as a system that shames us in order to make us buy their products you know anyway, the point is that it's there. The escape route for shame I wouldn't say it's it's ever really escaped because even when you're in stage 4 You can be triggered back to stage one.
58:34.44
talknerdy
Yeah.
58:47.25
Cathy O_Neil
You know temporarily but it involves it involves this notion of a reckoning which I think is is the closest that will come to actually solving it.
58:55.28
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, oh I love that I think that those that that kind of way to to operationalize and and view this in ah in a structured way is really really helpful for a lot of people for whom the idea of shame was is sort of an ineffable concept.
59:12.42
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah.
59:14.52
talknerdy
But now starting to recognize it and understand the the power that it has on their lives and and really take that power back I think it can really really be beneficial. so so I appreciate that so Kathy listen um every show. Yeah, every show ends with these 2 big picture questions and um.
59:25.23
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, 2 questions. Mm.
59:33.13
talknerdy
They are as I mentioned very big picture. So if you need a moment we understand um the first one and and I want you to think of these in whatever context is relevant to you like right now in this moment so it could be very.
59:34.90
Cathy O_Neil
Okay, I'll think.
59:46.26
talknerdy
Personal. It could be contextualized within the work that you've been doing around shame and humiliation and these institutions or around mathematics or it could be more like communal. It could be global. It could be cosmic. Whatever is relevant to you number 1
59:58.87
Cathy O_Neil
Okay, what.
01:00:02.49
talknerdy
What is the thing that is really keeping you up the most at night. What is the thing you're most concerned about maybe it's It's kind of triggering some ah ah pessimism or even some cynicism in you. You know where where are you really struggling and then on the flip side of that when you think about it sorry I didn't. Put the copy out of like when you think about the future. Um, you know what is the thing That's keeping you up the most at night on the flip side of that So we end on a more positive note. What are you? where are you finding your hope for the Future. What are you? you know, genuinely optimistic about.
01:00:24.43
Cathy O_Neil
Go fast.
01:00:35.31
Cathy O_Neil
Well yeah I mean I guess the the urgent need I felt to write this book is the answer to the first question which is like I really think that our online.
01:00:41.64
talknerdy
Man mahemi.
01:00:49.60
Cathy O_Neil
Um, existences which which are basically our existences ever since Covid hit right? like we're just like even we're working from home. So we're working online the interactions we have are toxic and um, there's such a profit to be made from that and and such a profit to be made from propaganda.
01:00:53.10
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:01:07.96
Cathy O_Neil
Um, if you look at the Ukraine situation. There's so much toxicity in the online world and it's so profitable and it is changing the way we think about each other and ourselves and it is making us addicted to being outraged and to denying each other dignity and that and I just don't know how that's gonna stop. So I do I do feel like this new the new version digital version of the shame industrial complex keeps me up at night and the thing that gives me a little bit of hope to be honest and this is kind of ironic. It's ah along the lines of like herd immunity. Ah but for shame is that like young people are.
01:01:31.89
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:44.59
Cathy O_Neil
Seem to be a lot less nasty than people my age I'm 50 I'm almost fifty I just want to say that like I left Facebook after the 2016 election when like people my age were spreading ridiculous false.
01:01:48.20
talknerdy
Tough.
01:01:54.94
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:02:02.65
Cathy O_Neil
Information about how it's not too late for Hillary Clinton to be installed as president and I was like yeah it is like stop. Um I was like we are so credulous. We're so vulnerable to misinformation. We just want to hear what we want to hear and we are just ready to sink our teeth into whatever it is told to us whereas I would say that.
01:02:05.93
talknerdy
Ah, yeah.
01:02:22.65
Cathy O_Neil
People my kids age or are just like don't go on the internet. Those people are crazy So I'm just like well maybe we have a chance then maybe our kids will teach us how to you know behave. Yeah.
01:02:25.17
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:02:33.31
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah I mean it I often hear in whatever context is super relevant to to the person I'm interviewing whether they're talking about climate change whether they're talking about. Um you know, kind of the ah. Conversation around what is real What is fake news. What is evidence based you know all the different answers that I often get to this last question. It's not uncommon for the the hope to be in a sort of new generation and I do think there is you know the sort of the that.
01:03:08.10
Cathy O_Neil
As a.
01:03:12.90
talknerdy
That moral arc of the universe is bending towards justice and although sometimes it's you know, 2 steps forward 3 steps back and of course there are 20 year old white supremacists. You know of course there are incels that are 17 Um there they're still and they you know sometimes that's like a function that's a function of youth and and sort of.
01:03:22.51
Cathy O_Neil
Yeah, yeah.
01:03:32.96
talknerdy
Frontal lobe development but but it isn't an uncommon sentiment that that there is a change that happens with young people recognizing injustice and taking a stand and being very vocal and and really being willing to go out and March in the streets.
01:03:51.38
Cathy O_Neil
Gift.
01:03:52.62
talknerdy
To to you know to affect change because they want a world that's better than the world that the fucking boomers left us.
01:03:58.73
Cathy O_Neil
And you know what I will just I'll just add 1 more thing. That's what makes me hopeful I do feel like the amount of attention we give to our online disputes over nothing that are like literally manufactured whole cloth by the by by the ether and and and Twitter.
01:04:02.90
talknerdy
E.
01:04:08.98
talknerdy
E.
01:04:14.90
talknerdy
And Russian Bots. Yeah yeah.
01:04:18.33
Cathy O_Neil
And Watts Yeah, like if we just took one sliver of that energy and United together on punching up and fixing these systems and holding them to account then you know that would be something so I do I do feel like we have the potential to really aim higher.
01:04:31.45
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:37.57
Cathy O_Neil
And to to great effect. We already have the hours logged on these social media platforms. Let's put them to use rather than just jumping on the shame trains.
01:04:45.31
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, love it all right? Well everyone the book is the shame machine who profits in the new age of humiliation by Dr. Kathy O'neill Kathy thank you so much for being here today was ah it was a pleasure.
01:04:58.82
Cathy O_Neil
Kathy thank you so much for being. It was really pleasure. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me and everyone listening.
01:05:03.36
talknerdy
And everyone listening. Thank you for coming back week after week I'm really looking forward to the next time we all get together to talk nerdy.
