Sticky w/ Laurie Winkless
In this episode of Talk Nerdy, Cara is joined by physicist and science writer Laurie Winkless to talk about her new book, "Sticky: The Secret Science of Surfaces." They discuss the role of friction in stickiness, why different surfaces stick differently, and how scientists and engineers use this information to create innovative materials. Follow Laurie: @Laurie_Winkless.
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Descript00:01.80
talknerdy
Laurie, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:04.77
Laurie W
I'm so happy to join you, Cara. It's lovely to hear your voice.
00:08.10
talknerdy
It's been too long I was just looking and your last um, the book that I had you on the show to talk about the first time was science and the city was published in 2016
00:18.32
Laurie W
I know I feel like the last two years we can kind of just ignore and but even so it's still such a long time ago. Yeah.
00:22.81
talknerdy
Right? Even so then I'm what like 3 years out yeah so the last time I I saw you when I spoke to you when we actually did our recording. Um, we did the recording when I was visiting New Zealand I think yeah.
00:32.14
Laurie W
Um, yeah, we did. We did the first one but then then your laptop took a little trip if I remember correctly.
00:40.85
talknerdy
Ah, you're right? That's why my my memory was so weird about because I was like I remember doing this remotely with you. But I also remember totally hanging out with you in New Zealand and talking in depth about your book that's because I interviewed you twice? no.
00:55.35
Laurie W
Yeah, indeed you just loved it so much you had to do twice.
00:58.96
talknerdy
Ah I did oh I'm so excited that you have a new book I'm so excited that you are continuing the sort of journey into your true passion which really is like ah physics ah materials engineering you know your last Book. Um. We did discuss quite a bit obviously on the show science and the city is it safe for me to for me to sort of summarize it as a deep dive into the structures the functions. The the things that make the city go the things we often don't think about. That are required to make the City. Go.
01:35.00
Laurie W
Yeah, that's that's a really good description I kind of laugh partly laughingly described it as my scientific love letter to the great cities of the world because that's what it felt like. So yeah, that's a good description car.
01:47.62
talknerdy
And then when when I found out you were writing a new book called sticky I guess I didn't quite realize right away that you were you were focusing on sort of the physics of things of things that stick of friction of how things connect with 1 another and and.
02:03.43
Laurie W
Are.
02:05.89
talknerdy
All the different ways that that manifests and I was like that's a big term to go from the city to to stickiness. But really, it's not a big turn at all. Is it.
02:12.97
Laurie W
Yeah, well for me this is a bit closer to you know? what? my my research background was to be honest and my interest in cities was partly driven by the fact that I was living in London I've moved from you know a relatively small town to this metropolis that just seems to. Move and you know everyone moves around by tube and the scale of everything is big and and and that is what really kind of inspired science in the city more so that than my actual kind of professional expertise or my my research background. Whereas sticky is is a lot closer to the type of research that I was doing when I was at the national physical laboratory and a lot to do with surface interactions and friction water repellent surfaces. Lots of things like that they were all topics I did lots of research on when I was a working scientist. So in a way it kind of feels closer to like a more obvious topic almost for me to cover. Um, but in saying that it is very different from science in the city. It. It feels different I think it reads differently? Um, but I think that it's. I'm really happy with the outcome of it and I think that I've managed to capture lots of interesting topics and probably more importantly to interview some amazing amazing scientists and engineers and historians and artists you know for this book and. So yeah, it's it's been a fun one. It's been It's been a long long road but it's been a fun one.
03:41.69
talknerdy
I can imagine you know, kind of going back to your roots a little bit your academic interests but having worked as a science communicator and a science Journalist for so long and really doing a lot of broad Science reporting. Um. Did you have to relearn a lot of things was it sort of you have to dust off some cobwebs.
03:59.73
Laurie W
Oh yeah, definitely like it was actually terrifying in some ways to look back at you know I found you know lots of my old papers and and lab reports and all I've always been good at keeping notes So I had really lots and lots of notes from the experiments I used to do. But sometimes yeah reading them. Others is like whoa I used to they to know all the stuff. So yeah, there were definitely some cobwebs that needed to be dusted off but that's for me that's like a that's a big motivator I Love Learning. It's pathetic to say that but it is. Nothing drives me more than than learning something new or or relearning something old in some cases. So yeah.
04:40.50
talknerdy
I Love that and so before we dive into sort of the content. You know the the what the book is and and you know all of the things that you did have to relearn and then the new things that you learned of course I'm curious about um you know your experience because you're.
04:58.72
Laurie W
Are.
04:59.20
talknerdy
You're a transplant right? like you grew up in Ireland and then you went to the big city in London and then you you found yourself in New Zealand and I'm wondering about you know like you were saying that the move to the city influenced your last book now you're sort of going back to your roots but your. You're across the globe from where those roots were first planted and I'm curious about this idea of geography and location and of course the pandemic which has kept many of us from traveling was there any sort of um influence on your.
05:18.92
Laurie W
Are the.
05:37.55
talknerdy
Space the place you are in space was there any influence on this new book at all first.
05:38.18
Laurie W
Um, man, what? Ah what a great question. Um, it's been. It's it's an odd. It's been an odd process if I'm if I'm honest because when I move to New Zealand at the end of 2 16 Um I had the beginnings of the idea for this book.
05:49.61
talknerdy
M.
05:57.52
Laurie W
You know I had kind of done an initial pitch I guess to my publisher um or at least I brought up the idea of the book but it was pretty malformed and in my naivety I thought yeah, we're going to move to New Zealand I'm going to get settled in really quickly. Um, I'm going to keep working on this book proposal and I'm going to get all this work and all this freelance work and of course moving to the other side of the world. Even if you have a husband who's who's from that country. You know we have he has roots here and and now I have to and was incredibly discombobulating to be honest.
06:28.85
talknerdy
The the.
06:31.65
Laurie W
And also I live in a you know I live in a much smaller city than than London so I also changed this my scale changed again. Which yeah, yeah, no, no exactly and you've been to Weddington right? You know it's not it's not big so but
06:39.61
talknerdy
Right? Even the big cities in New Zealand are not that big. Yeah, but yeah, ah.
06:49.89
Laurie W
A lovely place to live. But I think that I just hadn't quite and understood the impact that changing my my place and that would have the impact it would have on on my ability to think my ability to kind of package up an idea for a book. Um, so kind of right at the beginning it was. It was really tough but.
06:56.33
talknerdy
Wow.
07:09.10
Laurie W
Um, eventually I kind of developed the the proposal and and worked it a few times because initially I think Bloomsbury thought it was a bit niche which is probably fair enough. Um, so when I actually got the kind of you know sign the contract to write the book and quite a lot of time had passed really you know more than a year had passed.
07:27.94
talknerdy
So.
07:28.43
Laurie W
Um, of living here. So by then I'd started to kind of find my feet um and started to get to know some scientists and engineers and other science communicators here in New Zealand and that helped a lot and you know some of the topics in the book were inspired by New Zealand
07:40.44
talknerdy
M.
07:46.35
Laurie W
I Have a whole chapter on Earthquakes and you know as ah as a Californiaian you know that seismic activity is just kind of part of daily life and that's very much the case here and I was kind of ignorant about the mechanisms of the mechanics of of earthquakes. So.
07:55.77
talknerdy
Yeah, wow.
08:04.50
Laurie W
I knew that I was in the best place in the world possible to to kind of uncover those answers. So. There's lots of New Zealand itself kind of woven into the narrative and but certainly I think being here and and being very far from most of my family I haven't actually been back to Ireland since. Well, it's for almost it's almost four years now well be will be 4 years in September which is much much longer than I ever thought it would be um, that's been really difficult. But I'm sure that it's had an impact on on the types of stories I wanted to tell and certainly of the people I wanted to feature I wanted to make sure I was.
08:24.40
talknerdy
Wow.
08:42.88
Laurie W
Featured people from kind of all over the place in a way to kind of help ground me possibly.
08:46.73
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah I I I don't know I feel like lately I've been so fascinated I Love talking to authors about the content right of their stories because that's what they've been poring over for so long and and those are the stories that they're that they've shared with us.
08:57.98
Laurie W
Are the.
09:04.49
talknerdy
But I'm also always really curious about process. Um I think it's It's so unique to the individual and we we are in these very strange times where our geography where our. Um, connections our communications, our interpersonal relationships. It's almost like we've taken a few steps back in time because of the restrictions that have been placed on us because of this pandemic. Um, So yeah, it's it's it's quite curious the way that that people are sort of relearning how to.
09:26.60
Laurie W
Um, and.
09:38.85
Laurie W
Um, it happened.
09:39.61
talknerdy
How to people I've been definitely learning how to people um a lot lately I've forgotten quite a few things about you know, being a social being um and that's tough you know, but you you are somebody who has been focused. Um.
09:48.71
Laurie W
Um, if.
09:53.54
talknerdy
Quite a lot not just on the communication of the science but of the core science itself. So you you didn't come to this from Journalism you came to this from real kind of boots-on-the-ground laboratory work and I'm curious then you know I think the main question you wrote a book called sticky.
09:58.37
Laurie W
Um, no.
10:04.31
Laurie W
Um.
10:13.30
talknerdy
Secret Science of surfaces. You know what? what does it mean for something to stick what it what's going on when something sticks to something else. Yeah.
10:21.78
Laurie W
That's that's the big question that is the whole book rubdy um I guess the thing and and one of the reasons like I called it sticky and but you know it's partly inspired by Mary Rou is I know that you've had on the show before Kara and I love her 1 word book titles.
10:36.19
talknerdy
Oh yeah, she'd missed just had her on for fuzz. Yeah yeah.
10:38.47
Laurie W
Um, yes, yeah I listened back to that interview just I think a few weeks ago it was great and but I really loved kind of 1 ne-w word titles and and I've I'm lucky I've gotten to know Mary very well over the past few years and she's been a real supporter and a good friend to me. Um, so she kind of gave me the thumbs up.
10:56.52
talknerdy
Oh I Love that.
10:58.10
Laurie W
To call it sticky. Yeah um and the reason really was that I kind of wanted to to use a slightly odd word. You know when when the concept for the book started mushing around in my brain. It was kind of called Science friction that was its kind of working title I guess.
11:04.31
talknerdy
E.
11:12.69
talknerdy
Also quite clever. Yes.
11:17.51
Laurie W
But I kind of I almost wanted to kind of argue with people or surprise people as the bit in that the word sticky it doesn't have any scientific definition right? It's it's not a scientific word. There's no metric. There's no metric for stickiness in the way that there is first say.
11:34.64
talknerdy
Right.
11:35.36
Laurie W
Temperature we can't just measure it but it is a word that we all have some associations with so when I say the word sticky and I've I've done this on Twitter I've asked people you know when I if I ask if I say the word sticky. What are the things that you associate with it and everyone kind of has their own association. So. It might be honey and the kind of bloopy nature of liquids or it might be post-it notes or you know it might for some people. It might be like ah a very sandpaper like a kind of a very high friction interaction and I just kind of loved how.
11:57.47
talknerdy
E.
12:09.60
talknerdy
Hing.
12:12.59
Laurie W
Different those things were that you know we have this word that we use all the time in daily life and kind of everyone has a roughly similar idea of what it means but that word just doesn't exist in science. So there's no scale at which you know stickies on one end and slippery is at the other end and.
12:28.80
talknerdy
Right? And are those even really opposites right.
12:30.99
Laurie W
Yeah, so yeah, quite they can't be opposites and I argue they can't be opposites because they're not well to Findd enough to be opposite. Um, but I liked that so I kind of it's a slightly in a way I in a way it doesn't quite capture everything that's in the book. But I like it for that reason.
12:36.79
talknerdy
Yeah, oh.
12:50.93
Laurie W
Um, so when we talk about how things stick I Guess most of the interactions are liquids. So when people think about stickiness they're thinking like I said about you know, glues and adhesives and sticky liquids and there are some metrics that we can use to define how sticky and inverted commas. Um.
12:56.80
talknerdy
E.
13:10.64
Laurie W
Honey is or ketchup is or water is and we can measure that using viscosity. So piscosity is really a measure of the friction. The the frictional interactions between molecules in a liquid so something that has very high viscosity What it really means is that.
13:23.26
talknerdy
M.
13:30.43
Laurie W
Those molecules are kind of quite attracted to each other and and tightly bound to one another so they move slowly and therefore the liquid is kind of loopy so on the scale of yeah.
13:37.27
talknerdy
Yeah, which is funny is I almost would never go to that means it's more sticky I would go to that means it's like thicker like that will be my colloquial thing to say I think.
13:43.87
Laurie W
Yeah, and and that's True. No no, That's completely true, but it's often the case that when when molecules when liquids with and high intermolecular forces. And they they are often also sticky in that they will interact with other compounds so they will react with water in the air or they will react with Oxygen and so often kind of gloopy thick liquids. Also you know can make adhesive bonds with surfaces. So That's kind of 1 way to think about it. But then you've also got like the solids.
13:57.38
talknerdy
6 only.
14:11.43
talknerdy
Yeah.
14:17.12
Laurie W
Solids on solids so that's when you're really talking about friction and again friction might not be the first worthy you think of when I want to ask you think about something sticky and but friction is yeah but friction is everywhere. Yeah.
14:27.47
talknerdy
It's not at all. It's so funny. It's so far. Yeah, it's it's it's I think when I think of sticky if you were to just say that sort of in a naive way like what do you think of I think of sugar I think of things like um.
14:38.81
Laurie W
Are.
14:43.41
talknerdy
Welding to each other because of that sugar glue. Um, and then I think my mind goes to ok, what's happening at the molecular level. But then my mind goes to it and I think this is the other big question and and hopefully one that we'll be grappling with during this hour Is there a direct relationship between what's happening at the molecular level and sort of the macro ah intuitive understanding or feeling that we have about stickiness or attraction or um, yeah, things kind of.
15:18.63
Laurie W
You You always ask fantastic questions carra you really do? the answer is kind of yes and no, um when I came in to write this book I had this idea and I read a little bit about it a long time ago.
15:19.40
talknerdy
Glomming onto one another.
15:35.30
Laurie W
We didn't actually have a fundamental understanding of what friction is like that we didn't really understand where this kind of and when I say friction I really mean like a resistive force force. It slows 2 things down from moving along one another you know and it's simplest terms. Um, yeah, exactly.
15:37.40
talknerdy
E.
15:48.84
talknerdy
Right? Like the brakes on your on your tires like that's that's always what I think of when I think of friction as breaking.
15:54.95
Laurie W
Yeah, and it's ah it's a great example exactly because it's 2 sliding surfaces usually and when when when the friction between two surfaces is very high. Um, it means they're kind of stuck to 1 another. They can't move along one another.
16:04.56
talknerdy
Me.
16:08.15
Laurie W
When the friction between them is low. It usually means they can slide very easily along one another. So that's like the kind of macro Scalele stuff and we we see that and we kind of have an instinctive understanding of what that means and and you know you know when you're sliding something along the ground. You know that there's a frictional interaction in there. But yeah I had kind of.
16:16.42
talknerdy
Yeah.
16:27.27
Laurie W
Gone in with this idea that there were still lots of mysteries about what's happening at the Atomic scale. So when where does friction come from when we're now talking about just a few atoms. Um, and what I kind of realize in the in the process of of researching this book is that we're actually developing a fairly sophisticated understanding of.
16:31.26
talknerdy
E.
16:47.25
Laurie W
Of where friction comes from down there. You know down at the atomic scale and throughout history. Really we have developed an extremely sophisticated understanding or at least an ability to manipulate and control friction at the macro scale. But what we're lacking is actually something that joins the 2 together.
17:00.92
talknerdy
M.
17:06.82
Laurie W
So There's a kind of a chasm so we've got knowledge on one side of it at the nanoscale and we've got knowledge on the macro scale. But as is so often the case in material Science. We've got this gap in the middle in what's called a mesos scale so there is no way for us to. Gather all the information we know about a material so we could we perfectly explain everything about a specific material. You know it's It's density and all of those kind of you know it's It's temperature. It's atomic structure and you know everything we could characterize a material perfectly. But there's no way for us to put. There's no where for us to put those numbers and into that will then tell us what frictional force that material will exert on another material. No.
17:54.22
talknerdy
Really So it's not really just about. It's funny because you know I I am very naive when it comes to sort of physics and chemistry. It's definitely not my my area of strength in Education I was on the other end of the of the science scale learning a lot about biology and psychology.
18:13.74
Laurie W
That's that's where I fall down drastically.
18:14.80
talknerdy
Um, yeah, and so I know that that you know sort of in my naive thinking I go to well bonds right? isn't this just all about how well it bonds to something else but is is that just only a very small part of the equation.
18:26.54
Laurie W
Um, yeah, like fundamentally kind of at the atomic scale when we're just talking about a few atoms friction kind of has at least 2 components so it has a kind of a chemical. Um, interact. There's ah, there's a chemical interaction and there's ah, there's a physical interaction. So by a chemical interaction I really mean electrons electrons start you know to paying attention to 1 another when they start sliding when 2 surfaces are sliding along one another and and that's a really important thing that I should say when we are defining friction.
18:46.84
talknerdy
Mm.
19:02.21
Laurie W
When we're trying to measure friction. We always have to know what the 2 materials are that are involved so there's a number called the coefficient of friction. It's a meaningless number unless you tell me what the 2 surfaces that are touching are so coefficient to friction is defined between specific materials like.
19:06.58
talknerdy
E.
19:15.91
talknerdy
E.
19:22.50
Laurie W
Wood on steel or ice on whatever you know so it has to be pairs of materials and um, yeah, yeah, it can it tends it tends to be kind of thought about slightly differently but it.
19:27.27
talknerdy
And is sometimes that material air like like an air water interface can have that coefficient as well. Okay, m.
19:39.92
Laurie W
How you know we have skin friction that's kind of how it's looked at when we're talking about air and so how how things move through the air like Aircraft for example and or how even things move through the water. So um, like swimmers and swimsuits they will often talk about skin friction which is the interaction. Between the surface and the air molecules or the water molecules that are directly touching that Surface So The ones that are in direct Contact. It's really all about contact and but yes.
19:59.80
talknerdy
Right? right? which is cool that even even when like we don't think of something as being a quote material. There is always a material present like there are always things interacting with other things. Even if you know it's not.
20:08.53
Laurie W
Um, the yes.
20:17.15
Laurie W
Yeah, totally and it's really it's really hard. You know I think when we think of materials when we discuss materials. We think of them as solids and you know I have a bad habit and possibly other material scientists have a bad habit of doing the same where actually we're talking about anything. We're really talking about an interface.
20:18.60
talknerdy
Solid like wood or steel. Yeah.
20:25.11
talknerdy
Yeah.
20:36.51
Laurie W
So we're talking about a point at which 2 things meet and those 2 things could be. You know they don't have to be too solids like you said they could be air or water and a solid for example and so yeah, we we do have ah I have I have certainly have a very bad habit of of just clamming them all in together.
20:53.60
talknerdy
Oh I think we all have a ah solids Bias I Definitely thinks. Ah, well yeah.
20:55.50
Laurie W
Um, and it's easier to imagine those things right? when you when you could picture something that's that's physical and solid but you know ultimately atoms aren't solid or mostly empty. Um, but that's very very difficult thing to to kind of.
21:07.98
talknerdy
True and.
21:14.63
Laurie W
Imagine in your minds. You know we like to think of things as as fundamentally solid so it's kind of understandable. But yeah, really, where friction comes in this way is on the surface. It's on. It's between 2 things the point at which 2 things meet and and studying it is very difficult because often you can't see that contact point you know there.
21:30.82
talknerdy
E.
21:33.53
Laurie W
If it's 2 solid materials. You can't see it. They're you're blocked from view. You're it's hard to actually get a probe in there and measure things. So so measuring surface interactions and and measuring friction is is is hugely challenging and that's.
21:36.19
talknerdy
M.
21:49.67
Laurie W
Partly why you know we have this knowledge of the of the nanoscale we kind of understand that electrons play a part in in how 2 materials are two surfaces when they are moving along one another electrons play a part in that interaction. Um, we also know that there's often a physical component like I said so you will have. You and might sometimes and you knock little pieces off you know if you've got 2 solid surfaces you might cause things to bend or break or crack. You'll also cause things to vibrate and those vibrations. Um at the atomic scale. We kind of think of those we call them phoneons and.
22:15.87
talknerdy
Right.
22:27.91
Laurie W
They are they? We now we now kind of are beginning to understand that those phonons these vibrations that happen when 2 materials move along one another are the source of the generation of heat in frictional interactions. So when we rub 2 things together like our hands on a chilly day. We generate heat.
22:38.22
talknerdy
M.
22:45.46
Laurie W
And and some of that 1 kind of component of that is actually coming from things that are happening at the atomic level. Um, but yeah, and then we have at the other end of the scale. We. We have all these numbers we you know you can look online for coefficients of friction. There are tables and tables and tables of them available on lots of websites. If you want to know how easily steel will slide on ice for example, but those those numbers have always been measured experimentally they have not been predicted. They have not been modeled. They have not been proven from first principles. They have always been.
23:09.41
talknerdy
Mm.
23:19.00
talknerdy
Oh so it's always an after the fact I'm going to I'm going to actually do the thing and and actually measure the drag. Okay.
23:23.38
Laurie W
Exactly I'm going to do it and measure it yeah and then I'm going to have the number So What we would love like what would be the ideal situation would be to gather together everything we know about friction at the nanoscale and all of these interactions and all of this incredible knowledge that we've gleaned over the past you know. About what's happening between atoms and molecules and on surfaces and how crystals form and Atomic lattices form if we could take all of that and design some sort of equation that we could just plug numbers into and then out will pop a coefficient of friction for that material. Interacting with some other material that would make life a lot easier for those who are interested in in you know surface interactions but we that's that's a chasm that we haven't yet managed to to cross.
24:03.12
talknerdy
1
24:11.94
talknerdy
Okay, so so and that's something that sort of material scientists physicists Engineers chemists are all really actively working on.
24:20.39
Laurie W
Absolutely yeah, yeah, understanding that will will be will be a huge game changer.
24:25.53
talknerdy
And so you know when when we think about this idea of you know, frictional interactions interactions between 2 different things. Whatever those things might be um, yeah obviously.
24:35.97
Laurie W
Um, um.
24:41.77
talknerdy
Those kinds of interactions are fundamentally important to how things work to how things move to how things are are built to how structures form. Um, but there are also things that we can potentially manipulate right? like I'm going right in my head to like lubricants like ways that you know something's kind of sticky squirt some WDForty on it.
24:52.87
Laurie W
Um, and absolutely.
25:01.25
talknerdy
Like something isn't you know isn't um, sliding past one another like there are tools that we have in our sort of disposal or at our disposal to adjust some things coefficient I suppose and is that is that because we're actually physically I mean we're not really physically changing.
25:11.85
Laurie W
Um, yeah, absolutely.
25:20.50
talknerdy
The structure of the 2 objects but we're actually adding a third object to the mix.
25:23.49
Laurie W
Yeah, precisely that what we're usually doing when we put in um, ah a lubricant into a system and is that we're just giving the materials something easier to slide on that's effectively what we're doing so you kind of need to keep the lubricant in there.
25:34.40
talknerdy
Yeah.
25:39.97
Laurie W
And that can be quite challenging depending on the design of your your engine or whatever your component is that you're you're trying to lubricate um and there are so like you said we have so many of these um, Lu lubricants available to us and they are often. They're. Usually designed with specific applications in mind. So You know we do have some general dupricants like you said WDForty? Fantastic product. We all we all use this and love it. That's kind of it That's kind of a general um lubricant that we can use in lots of Situations. You can also use Graphite. You could you know, just the nib of your pencil that gives you a very low friction surface so that can be a lubricant in a pinch. Um, but usually lubricants are designed for specific Purposes. You know for particular temperature ranges or applications like in in an engine they need to be able to. Keep their liquid form and and stay in situ between the 2 components at very high temperatures and and maybe very high vibrations as well. Um, So yeah, so and so a lubricant is.
26:39.43
talknerdy
Right.
26:45.51
Laurie W
You want to get the right one for your application reading and that's the kind of key thing. There isn't really one that does everything for everybody.
26:53.21
talknerdy
It's funny because I'm thinking how can I How come my head not go here right? But I'm thinking that you and you sort of ah, kind of nodded to this that one of the hard things about just lubricating to surfaces in order to kind of reduce their stickiness. Um.
27:06.84
Laurie W
Are.
27:09.80
talknerdy
Is that almost by nature of the stickiness of the surfaces. It's going to rub the lubricant away and of course my head my head goes to sexs I can't help it and that's why it's so great that people kind of make their own. But if they need additional help that additional help has to be reapplied. Ah.
27:13.79
Laurie W
Um, absolutely.
27:24.50
Laurie W
Yeah, certainly does in most situations, you need to reapply your lubricant. It's very important. Don't skip on thelabricant.
27:32.85
talknerdy
Ah, yeah, it's it's it's ah what a frustrating conundrum for engineers to think like oh the very thing that we need by virtue of the reason we need it. We have to keep needing it because the 2 objects are forcing it out of the out off the surface like that's what it is.
27:43.62
Laurie W
Um, know yeah if that motion continues exactly if that motion continues that lubricant is going to be used up. So yeah, it is. It is really challenging and you know the process of of designing a lubricant.
27:52.45
talknerdy
Yeah.
28:00.78
Laurie W
Again, it's kind of been something that's been quite experimental and we've been doing it really since the eighteenth century you know the beginnings of the industrial revolution. Um, but yeah at the beginning it was definitely not a science but was very much like it's just mixed up some compounds that are you know, got some oil chuck it in there. We've got some other.
28:04.90
talknerdy
E.
28:20.34
Laurie W
Byproducts of the fossil fuel industry. Let's just Chuck that in there that was definitely the approach and and to a degree in some cases. It kind of still is in that you know they've got recipes that work so they just kind of use them really? Um, but as our technology is kind of getting more high tech and in some cases you know.
28:22.40
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
28:40.60
Laurie W
More demanding. You know when we're putting things in in space and we're putting things on the surface of Mars and you're not necessarily going to want a lubric the same lubricant that you'll use and you know on your weekend with your partner. You're going want you're going to want to really specific.
28:51.12
talknerdy
Right? Yeah, there's there's no case kellylling going to Mars. Yeah.
28:59.20
Laurie W
You got to want something really specific. That's that's designed to to work in those particular conditions. So we have started to become a bit more scientific I say weed like like I'm a lubrication engineer but you know be condition Engineers are getting I guess I'm a fan girl maybe? um.
29:09.72
talknerdy
Ah, your honorary come on. You've spent enough time with them now. Yeah.
29:17.70
Laurie W
But yeah, they've started to get much more scientific in their approach to to designing lubricants and part of this is motivated by a real desire to to be less reliant on on fossil on the Fossil fuel industry because like I said most of them are byproducts or use byproducts from from Fossil fuels to to be made. So.
29:25.90
talknerdy
M.
29:34.10
talknerdy
Yeah, they're oil based I mean that's what we think of when we think of lubrikins as oil. It's slippery. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:35.68
Laurie W
Now that the pressure is on absolutely a hundred percent yeah exactly so we're trying to get away from that and and moving towards greener lubricants that means you need to be a bit more scientific in your approach.
29:47.15
talknerdy
And so you know lubricating surfaces is one way to reduce their stickiness. Um, but I can imagine that there are other ways that engineers and and scientists reduce the stickiness between at an interface.
29:55.38
Laurie W
Um, couldn't.
30:03.91
Laurie W
Yeah I mean lubricants is kind of the easy way to do it which so tends to be kind of the default and you can of course and theensity. But you can change your materials you can change your material so that your your pair of materials naturally have a lower coefficient of friction. So.
30:06.85
talknerdy
M.
30:13.84
talknerdy
Right.
30:22.39
Laurie W
You know we used to have wooden skates and but wood on ice has a higher coefficient of friction than steel on ice. So we've moved to steel blades and and steel ice skates. Um, so they you know? So yeah.
30:28.45
talknerdy
E. Wow People used to skate on wood so they would just make these huge like troughs in the ice I can imagine.
30:40.13
Laurie W
Well apparently and I don't know I haven't found and I'm not an archaeologist and I don't necessarily trust that this is correct but I have read that there's actually some evidence um in the Scandinavian countries of using bone as as early ice skates. Yeah in areas where where they would be.
30:52.48
talknerdy
Um, ah yeah, that would be better.
30:57.99
Laurie W
Exactly because have you know, quite strong, especially if you if you use them in the correct orientation bones can be really strong. Um, so yeah, you know we've gone from bone to to wood to to steel now and and steel is about as good as it gets in terms of gliding your body across the ice.
31:07.88
talknerdy
Um, yeah, and so so we can change the material we can spray something or squirt something on the material. We can also like coat the material with something right? I mean I.
31:17.73
Laurie W
Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure eaten. Yeah I haven't you know what I need to see it because you're you're the second person to mention it to me. So yeah I need to.
31:23.34
talknerdy
Can't help but go to teflon. There's a whole documentary about teflon. It's actually kind of scary have you seen it the devil you know it's it's It's very good I am a documentary ah just like nut I is is it called the devil you know.
31:37.80
Laurie W
Um.
31:41.60
talknerdy
Now I'm confused let me see teflon documentary. Ah yeah, there's multiple the devil you knows on Tv but oh the devil we know that's why yeah the devil we know? Um, but yeah, it's obviously it's a very um, it's it's it's an incredible incredible um molecule
31:43.15
Laurie W
Um, oh today.
31:59.17
Laurie W
Um, so the her.
32:00.81
talknerdy
Ah, compound whatever you want to call it that is also so ubiquitous that it's it's in most of our blood.
32:05.82
Laurie W
Yeah, it it is. It is pretty terrifying and it's in. It's been since the 1990 s as far as I understand that you know we started to properly look into the potential health risks of of teflon or specifically of of 2 of its ingredients. So I can't remember what they stand for but it's.
32:17.22
talknerdy
You start.
32:23.53
Laurie W
P f oa and p o they're the 2 really problematic ingredients in teflon and and yeah, they've they've been effectively banned from their use. But yeah, they were used for an extremely long time before that were before that happened.
32:23.98
talknerdy
E.
32:36.84
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, and that's really what they they do dive deep into that on this um in this documentary and I remember the thing that stood out the most to me was that they went to they wanted to see if the people who were working in the factories had like you know what? if we can detect it in their body fluids and their blood. Whatever.
32:42.39
Laurie W
Half.
32:52.10
Laurie W
Are.
32:55.23
talknerdy
And they needed to find a reference sample to compare it and they couldn't no blood draw that they could find didn't have it and that was really telling yeah and and the only way that they could look at it was to find stored blood from before its advent and so it's interesting. How yeah.
32:59.85
Laurie W
Um, wow that start playing and.
33:08.37
Laurie W
Wow yeah I mean it's so widely used today. Yeah.
33:14.78
talknerdy
And I guess that probably has something to do with it stickiness like the fact that we are all you know we eat we eat food. Um on pans that have been sprayed with teflon and of course it's used for all sorts of things. It's used to and all these things reduce stickiness like it's used to scotch guard couches.
33:16.79
Laurie W
Um, yeah.
33:25.35
Laurie W
Um.
33:33.50
talknerdy
I think we I'm using scotchard as a verb but that's it the brand name right? like Kleenex do you guys do that in New Zealand do you have your own brands that you do that with? do you say kleenex hoover I've seen that in the u k yeah people Hoover that's true.
33:34.55
Laurie W
Um, yes. Yeah I think well now I think we sit like Hoover is the one I say a lot whereas I don't actually have a hoover. Yeah I have a different branded vacuum cleaner but I still say I still called it a hoover.
33:52.66
talknerdy
Oh that's yeah, that's the big what see in America we say band-aid instead of bandage which you guys call plasters. Yeah, and but everybody here just says band-aid even if they're talking about a different brand and then we all say kleenex when we're talking about a tissue like a facial tissue.
33:56.55
Laurie W
Um, oh yeah, and class. Yeah yeah.
34:08.23
Laurie W
Yeah, well I mean I guess it's true for teflon as well because Taflon's also trademark because it's its real name is Poly Tetra Fluo Eylinene P Ptf E yeah wait wait had to go through it slowly.
34:11.50
talknerdy
But yeah, exactly wow that was impressive that just rolled right out of you. But yeah, that's that's really funny and a total tangent but whatever. So yeah, these, but these types of things and not to like vilify teflon because yes, obviously those are big problems but there's a reason it's ubiquitous because it works right? It was a game changer when when it was first developed.
34:31.53
Laurie W
Um, yeah, yeah, no precisely. Yeah, and you know do you know where it came from. Let me you probably know this from the documentary.
34:46.42
talknerdy
I Probably but I saw it years ago. So I don't remember. Ah.
34:48.73
Laurie W
But yeah, it was. You know it was used in the in the Manhattan project in the 1940 s you know it's not I think a lot of people think of it as as a product from the space industry. You know there's a lot of these oh this came because of the apollo missions or whatever and sometimes that's true. Um, but in this case it it came out it was used. It's because it's very corrosion resistant.
34:59.90
talknerdy
Right.
35:06.87
talknerdy
Ah.
35:08.67
Laurie W
And so it was used I think in storage canisters and at the Manhattan project so it has a bit of a problematic history even before it was put onto all of our frying plants.
35:16.72
talknerdy
Wow Yeah, and then of course ah it served the same purpose whether it's for the food that we eat or for storing probably these compounds that were necessary the whole point of it is to keep the stuff from sticking to the surface.
35:23.72
Laurie W
Um. Yeah, exactly and and the way that it does. It is partly because of its but it's really because of its molecular Structure. So So Teflon is is very are very long chains of carbon like a backbone of carbon and they're surrounded by atoms of Fluorine. And the bonds between the carbon and the floine they've like they're often described as the strongest bonds in organic Chemistry. You know they're really incredibly strong and and practically what that means is that Teflon is incredibly unattractive to everything that is not Teflon. So.
35:52.51
talknerdy
M.
36:01.77
talknerdy
Ah.
36:04.69
Laurie W
Yeah, so and when person I interviewed for the book said fluorocarbon groups dislike anything and everything in the universe that isn't fluorocarbon. So yeah, so like when you when you put it onto when you when you bring a compound something else in contact with with teflon. It basically Just. Cannot react with it so they can't kind of get in there and interact with with the molecules. The molecules are completely disinterested in reacting with anything so that's what makes it so kind of slippery and also like so ubiquitous because you know you can You can think about so many. Ah.
36:30.65
talknerdy
Our.
36:41.48
Laurie W
Um, applications for you know it's used a lot in the medical industry. Um, any time that you've had you know a smear test. For example, it's very likely that there's been a teflon coating on on the thing that's been used and to make it a bit less. You know to reduce the discomfort a bit and lots of anything that goes inside your body often has.
36:51.30
talknerdy
E.
36:58.30
talknerdy
Yeah.
37:00.60
Laurie W
Um, taon on it. But again this is the teon that doesn't have the PfoS and the pfos and it um that it used to yeah just to reassure it. Yes, he is.
37:04.92
talknerdy
Good. Yeah, but yeah I can imagine. Yes, yes, good on on the swabs that are going inside my body. Um, but I can imagine that. Yeah, it's probably used I'm I'm just trying to think of all the different. You know we mentioned like um, coating on furniture and clothing to make them stain resistant.
37:16.34
Laurie W
Are the.
37:23.96
talknerdy
And of course even your car's windshield. Um I know that many of the like wiper fluids that are used have some sort of molecule in them that make rain not stick to your window. You know it just balls up and kind of rolls off.
37:32.91
Laurie W
Yeah, it's true and actually what's interesting about those is a lot of those compounds they they don't kind of um assist an interesting one because what they do is they usually put a they're effectively putting a coating on your windshield a kind of a temporary coating. So the coating.
37:48.22
talknerdy
You.
37:53.70
Laurie W
Wets the surface of the glass entirely. So it's just spreads out instantly and and forms a coating and then that coating is what rejects everything else? Basically um yeah, so that's kind of like interesting but and there has been some research over the years to try and actually develop and with some success I should say to try to develop.
38:01.36
talknerdy
Yeah.
38:12.27
Laurie W
Proper kind of self-cleaning glass so that the glass itself and is water repellent and dirt repellent and and that kind of involves a bit of chemistry and a bit of patterning the surface. So it's kind of coated in these in these nanobumps it it takes inspiration from the Lotus leaf. Um.
38:16.87
talknerdy
Whoa.
38:28.33
talknerdy
Ah.
38:30.88
Laurie W
Yeah, so there's been kind of a moderate success but they're incredibly expensive to make his glass Love fun of but no, exactly exactly see exactly so you kind of have to do what you want is a coating that almost kind of disappears visually for you but stays in contact with the glass.
38:33.30
talknerdy
Right? And it's not like you can just spray teflon on your windshield because then you wouldn't be able to see. Yeah.
38:48.83
Laurie W
Long enough to to repel all the other stuff that hits you windscreen.
38:50.63
talknerdy
So I'm I'm I'm wondering you know there's all these different ways that we can reduce stickiness but there are obviously a million examples in which we want things to stick and you know what? what's sort of the I don't want to say the opposite but what is the alternative approach. You know I'm I'm a scientist.
38:55.85
Laurie W
Um, oh yeah.
39:06.40
Laurie W
Are.
39:09.48
talknerdy
Or just an everyday person who's trying to figure out how to get these things to stick you know I'll go for the tape I'll go for the glue. These are the things that first. Ah the gums these things kind of come to mind and is that with what's happening in the lab basically making molecular glues and tapes.
39:13.84
Laurie W
I hope.
39:23.84
Laurie W
Yeah, effectively it is um I spoke to a friend of mine the other day and she's saying well I can't imagine ever working in a lab where I don't use blue tack like everywhere. So yeah to hold on to your sandfuls and and and yeah, we you know in the lab The kind of commercial sticky products are used a lot.
39:35.45
talknerdy
But.
39:43.80
Laurie W
Um, but yeah on the molecular scale. There are some things and there are some materials that are particularly good at being grippy and I guess the most obvious one is is rubber again. 1 of these materials that we completely take for granted because we use it so much. But.
39:50.31
talknerdy
And.
40:01.00
Laurie W
Rubber is incredibly good at gripping onto surfaces which is you know why we use it on our shoes and and why we make our running tracks with rubber in Them. You know there's a reason that rubber is so good is so popular. Um, and that's that's partly because it is a very weird. Technical term a very weird material. Um, it's what's called a viscoelastic fluid or viscoelastic material and what that means is that it sits somewhere between an elastic solid. So think of it like a Spring. Um.
40:25.29
talknerdy
M.
40:36.53
Laurie W
And a very viscous fluid like the honey and things that we talked about earlier. Um, when you compress an elastic solid like a spring you kind of apply a squeezing force to it you compress the spring and then when you release that the spring bounces back and retains its normal shape right.
40:53.63
talknerdy
So E yeah.
40:55.83
Laurie W
When you've got a sticky fluid and you try to compress that it doesn't quite happen in the same way. There's kind of a bit of a delay between the force that you apply and the the fluid kind of responding to that. Um, and that's because of this very high internal friction that we see in in viscous fluid. So. When you try to squeeze a viscous fluid you kind of lose a lot of energy to that internal friction and so you've got a delay between applying the force and the fluid responding to it and and rubber sits bang in the middle of those 2 types of materials so it sits between.
41:29.57
talknerdy
Oh.
41:32.27
Laurie W
Yeah, this viscco elasticity is is really what makes it so incredibly useful because I get it in a tire in like a car tire or yeah in the in the book I talk about formula 1 um in in a whole chapter and tires are kind of the star really of that chapter.
41:41.80
talknerdy
E.
41:48.47
Laurie W
Um, but when ah when a rubber tire rolls along a racetrack the rubber deforms as we know it's a kind of a soft-ish um fluid material. Um, so it deforms and it kind of slips and it flows over all these bumps that.
41:58.33
talknerdy
Yes, yeah.
42:05.60
Laurie W
That race tracks are covered in even the smoothest racetrack is actually rough on the scale of a tire and that because of this visccoelastic nature of rubber that interaction kind of. Generates a resistive force between the tire and the road. So. There's a slight delay and there's a slight kind of holding on between the rubber and the road so that gives kind of one way for the for the tyre to to grip on the road. But if you're also a formula one tire that's been highly engineered and is usually very very smooth. It can make such intimate contact with a racetrack and it's about there's ah, a distance of less than and one nanometer between the rubber molecules and the track surface and that actually means that it can tap into molecular Adhesion. So It's kind of a temporary bond. Forms between the the rubber molecules of the tire and the asphalt surface of the track so it has 2 different ways of gripping onto surfaces. So Rubber is just ah, a magic material for for that reason because. It gives us grip exactly when we need it.
43:14.83
talknerdy
Oh Wow and that's why of course it has so many applications. But.
43:18.77
Laurie W
Yeah, absolutely and like we are so reliant on it. You know you think about how often you've you've relied on it. You kind of only become aware of how reliant you are on it when it doesn't work for some reason you know when you slip over on ice or.
43:33.17
talknerdy
Yeah.
43:35.25
Laurie W
Um, your tires you've left your tires for too long and and they lose their grip. You've become. You're never more aware of how important rubber friction is than when you have none of it. Absolutely yes.
43:42.52
talknerdy
Yeah, then then when you're wearing the wrong shoes for the wrong to the rain. Yeah what? Um this is such a silly question but what is rubber like is it where do we get It is it a natural product or is it synthetic m.
43:54.66
Laurie W
No it it. It was originally a natural a natural product. It's kind of generated by by well produced by certain groups of trees. Um, and it's been you? yeah.
44:03.86
talknerdy
That's what I thought but I wasn't sure if the rubber trees were a misnomer or if they actually if Rubber actually did originally come from rubber trees. Okay.
44:07.78
Laurie W
Yeah, they definitely did and but the rubber that they produce and it doesn't stay hard when it gets warm like it kind of melts and becomes a liquid again. So the rubber that we use and the kind of black rubber that we see a lot in tires like bike tires and car tires.
44:15.13
talknerdy
Anyway.
44:20.97
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
44:24.85
Laurie W
That's gone through an additional process. It's called vulcanization. Um, and it basically it adds in some other compounds and forms extra links between all of the compounds. So that produces a kind of a rubbery if you know what I mean a rubbery material but it's much more durable and it stays solid at higher temperatures so that like that.
44:27.73
talknerdy
Lu.
44:41.10
talknerdy
Right.
44:44.42
Laurie W
Invention of that process was really what kickstarted rubber the rubber industry these days. We don't use so much natural rubber most of what we see now is is some blend of polymers again usually made from Fossil Fuels and and lots of. Lots of other additives. So Yeah and what most of rubber we see today is is not natural rubber.
45:02.96
talknerdy
So I can imagine that there are also pushes to sort of move or develop a material that is a little bit more green That's more biodegradable that comes from a more renewable um source but have we not really been able to find anything that stands up to that same kind of.
45:10.47
Laurie W
Um.
45:20.68
Laurie W
Yeah, um, there are several tire companies who are really looking heavily into this um and investing a lot of money in it. Um, so I'm pretty confident that we will start to see some progress in that direction. Although you know if it if only it were twenty years earlier
45:21.20
talknerdy
Petroleum-based rubber.
45:35.88
talknerdy
Right.
45:37.97
Laurie W
I'm a good friend of my kid Chapman has a book coming out which is called racing green and it's all about kind of the move towards green technologies in motorsport. Oh maybe I don't know oh maybe yes he did. Yeah so he's got another.
45:46.60
talknerdy
Oh did I I I think I had him right him on my show did he did He do a book about the periodic table. Yes I've totally had him on the show. He's a lovely so lovely. Ah, oh cool.
45:57.63
Laurie W
He is lovely. So yeah, he's he's written another book which I think is out really soon if if not already and he goes into loads of detail actually about about these these new alternative materials to to the rubber that we use.
46:08.53
talknerdy
Right? I mean obviously it's it's fundamental to our future to be thinking about you know, kind of we were able to innovate in an extractive and sort of non forward thinking way and we got all of these amazing tools at our disposal and and now.
46:13.70
Laurie W
Are.
46:28.18
talknerdy
We're paying for it and we really do have to think about you know how can we use the technology that we've developed and or the the sort of outcome of that technology development and and innovate even further so that we're utilizing materials that are kind of kinder and really in a way that brings me to another question kind of stick with my.
46:41.63
Laurie W
Are.
46:47.93
talknerdy
Very convoluted thinking. Um here here in the evening time. Um, how how deep did you dig in your research and of course in your writing as well into this sort of concept of Biomimicry like how much. Are are engineers looking to nature and the stickiness or non-sticiness of nature to try to um ah to find inspiration or innovation.
47:05.16
Laurie W
Are the.
47:14.47
Laurie W
Yeah, this is is a good one because it's I have a kind of partly a good answer and partly a bad answer I'll go with the bad answer first which is that um I had planned to write a lot more about biomimicry ah like particularly the.
47:20.67
talknerdy
Yeah, ah.
47:30.60
Laurie W
The use of kind of bioinspired adhesives in in the medical industry because that's a huge growing field. You know, looking at muscles and and other undersea creatures and and how they anchor themselves to rocks. It's It's quite difficult to anchor yourself to a wet rock. Yeah um.
47:33.23
talknerdy
8
47:40.68
talknerdy
Me right? Underwater yeah.
47:49.68
Laurie W
Usually the way the way they do. It is by by pushing out all of the water. So the contact they make is actually dry and but in saying that yeah there there's been loads of work done on on kind of taking inspiration from from Nature's adisives to.
47:55.90
talknerdy
Cool.
48:05.70
Laurie W
To use them in the medical industry and it ended up just being a topic I just didn't have time to look into and you know this was Pre-pandemic so it does feel like a bit of an oversize to to not have included something about the medical industry in the book. But it is what it is um, but.
48:19.35
talknerdy
But you do talk about Geckos right? and about Gecko feet which is like a really exciting thing for a lot of engineers to be sort of launching from.
48:23.32
Laurie W
I Do oh man. Yeah, and that that is absolutely and that is an area where Biomimicry is a huge thing So there's there's a whole chapter on the Gecko I initially thought it was going to be a chapter that would cover.
48:32.65
talknerdy
You.
48:39.24
Laurie W
The stickiness of lots of different animals but I just got totally hooked on the gecko like obsessed and I just kept riding and I was like well it's just gonna be about the geckup. Um, but yeah, like I got to hang out but yet back in the before times when we could travel um I got to spend some time with. Mark Kokowski who's at Stanford University and he and and lots of actually lots of his colleagues I chatt to over the over the years and they do an awful lot of work on on bioins inspiredred devices and robots and the gecko is a big kind of inspiration for them and not just.
49:08.89
talknerdy
M.
49:15.65
Laurie W
They actually had like a sticky bot that kind of looked a bit like a gecko with four feet and it had rubbery toes so that was a cool project. but but really what's kind of come out of that is is the adiesive itself like these these pads these silicone pads that take inspiration from the structures that exist on a gecko's foot. And that's something that's actually going pretty well, it's starting already to be used in factories where you have to grip and pick up kind of awkwardly shaped things these these geckle pads actually have to improve the grip that you get but because they themselves are not sticky.
49:44.73
talknerdy
M.
49:54.32
Laurie W
Um, they don't leave any sort of residue on the things that they move around. That's seen them use in the space industry for the same reason. Um, they've been trials on the vomit comet. They've even been trialed at the international space station um to to show that this this is the type of stickiness that is. Works really well at at low gravity. It doesn't leave any residue behind and it can give you ah and you don't need to kind of um, have anything extra beyond the actual material to to get a grip. You don't have to have pressured air or or anything like that or any clamps. Um. So yeah, That's a huge like the gecko because the the way that a Gecko grips We. We could never have invented it. You know we if that if it didn't exist in Nature. We would never have known to do it that way. It's not.. It's not an obvious structure and.
50:38.86
talknerdy
Ah, really.
50:50.25
Laurie W
What it looks like. So if you look at a little geck of's foot. Um, they'll usually have 4 or 5 toes depending on the species. Um and on each of the toes. They'll have these kind of flaps of skin and they're called the nele um, so you've got like the foot. The foot itself is quite flexible sometimes they'll have claws as well. That helps them grip to.
51:09.61
talknerdy
So.
51:09.64
Laurie W
Rough surfaces like trees. The Laelle kind of help them because they can conform quite a bit. They can flex a bit so that leads them to grip to slightly less rough surfaces but you know as the Gecko continued to be studied and and our microscopes and better microscopes began to be Invented. What was realized was that these strips of skin. These manele are actually covered in forests of hairs much much smaller hairs and and they're called Cte and they're like Wow. Okay, So maybe it's just a really high surface area thing So when a gecko.
51:43.46
talknerdy
Right.
51:46.28
Laurie W
Is on a smooth surface these these hairs you know they increase the surface area and that's what makes them grip but actually they're even smarter than that because if you look at the end of each one of these hairs Each hair has like a really bad case of split ends.
51:53.94
talknerdy
Yeah.
52:03.41
Laurie W
So Each hair kind of splays out into lots of other smaller hairs and and they're called spatululate because of the shape of them. Um, which I Love Ah, but yeah, so they so they are so small and they can They can make such intimate contact with the wall that that effectively their electrons. Are kind of are interacting with the electrons on whatever surface. It's climbing up. Yeah, so it is It is genuinely incredible and the really cool thing about it is they can switch that stickiness on and off rapidly because if you've ever seen a geck or move they move really quickly like they.
52:24.14
talknerdy
No, that's so cool.
52:38.74
talknerdy
Um.
52:41.70
Laurie W
They can run really fast and they do that because because their stickiness is entirely structural, right? There's no gloopy thing. They don't secrete anything as far as we know this is just about this hierarchical structure. This bigger features. Smaller features layered on top of it all they have to do is to curl their toes back. They just change the angles the angle that those hairs that those those spatula those tiny tiny hairs make with the wall to decrease the interaction so they can just.
53:13.73
talknerdy
Oh so they're not retracting like they're not being sucked back into their feet. They're not closing the little split in so that they make 1 fat hair again, they're just pulling their foot back a little bit. Ah cool. Ah.
53:17.91
Laurie W
No.
53:26.25
Laurie W
They're just pulling their foot back a little and that's yeah and it's so cool and my that I think is kind of it. Probably the the most exciting kind of Biomimicry thing that is is ongoing. It's being ongoing for a long time right? It's just not um, people have been obsessed with the gaca for a long time but it's It's really now that we're Seeing. You know, proper commercial use of of this technology and and just to say right that the commercial systems that we have. They're nowhere near as good as a Gecko force right? We couldn't yeah.
53:50.38
talknerdy
Right? right? But I guess we couldn't really get there before until we had like nanomaterials right? like we need small things.
53:59.85
Laurie W
We do. But actually we can get a lot of we can kind of copy and and tap into a lot of the same ideas even with slightly bigger features so these these commercial materials they don't have Spatule. They don't have features that are that small their features are actually pretty large compared to compared to the geckos.
54:05.74
talknerdy
Me.
54:17.98
Laurie W
Compared to this kind of hierarchical structure that the gecko has but it's still they've used a flexible material that allows them to get much more conformity to surfaces they use a silicone and and and a gecko's foot is is a bit stiffer than that so they're kind of going. Oh well, we can. We can make some of these small structures that we can change the angle of they're they're kind of wedges effectively that display outwards when you place the place 1 of these pieces of material on the wall you tog it down slightly that splays out these silicone wedges.
54:50.14
talknerdy
M.
54:51.84
Laurie W
And that makes sufficiently sufficient contact that it's It's usually good enough to to grip and to pick something up like Geckos go so far beyond that but but we don't need to go as far as they have gone for it to be a useful, a useful development. Yeah.
55:04.42
talknerdy
Right? Get goes like can climb on the ceiling and easily no problem. So cool. Yeah, they just have to figure out how to not get that stuff to fall off their backs. They're like only my feet.
55:09.74
Laurie W
Easily no problem and they could probably carry several kilograms of of mass on their back at the same time. Yeah,, they're amazing. Um, yeah, yeah, exactly they because air's fine.
55:23.82
talknerdy
Sticky. Oh no, they'd have to put it all in their mouth or something. Ah, oh, that's so cool. Gosh There's so many awesome things in your book. There's so much to learn about something that we I think Legit take for granted in not just nature around us. But in all of the materials that we use every day like. The more we've been talking the more I've been thinking about like the laptop that I'm looking at and all of the codings and I have this little laptop table next to so my podcast studio I've got like a table because used to be people would come here and we would talk you know in person weird right? Yeah, So there's like another seat. That's just always empty Now. Um.
55:52.57
Laurie W
Um, yeah, Wow crazy. Oh.
56:00.50
talknerdy
Yeah, it's really sad and then I have this little laptop kind of table that rolls up but it's I didn't realize when I ordered it that it's um, it's like on a diagonal like it's tilted and then I was like crap my laptop just slider I was like who invented this and there's no mechanism to make it straight So I bought like a.
56:08.52
Laurie W
Um, oh right? oh.
56:18.74
Laurie W
Nice, um.
56:19.96
talknerdy
Pad and they exist they're these like rubbery kind of siliconey pads that you just slap to the table and then you set your laptop on it and it does not move and you know every so often it gets too dusty and you just run it underwater and it it restics. Um, and.
56:28.21
Laurie W
Um, yeah.
56:37.49
talknerdy
I mean I Guess that's how reusable lint rollers work too like this this is your book like this is this is like what you're talking about. It's right in front of me. Ah, that's so cool. It's literally everywhere and of course you're probably used to that you see stickiness all the time. Don't you.
56:37.96
Laurie W
Um, yeah, yeah, exactly Yeah um.
56:48.39
Laurie W
Yeah, yeah I do now I think and like it's It's become a real kind of obsession and it's been a really fun thing for me to explore like we said right? at the start you know I knew.
56:56.00
talknerdy
So.
57:06.80
Laurie W
A lot of these things going in or at least you know I knew them at some point in my history and but there were so many other things that I had the wrong idea about you know this idea that we don't understand Friction. That's not true and I also thought that we totally understood what it is that makes ice slippery and actually it's only. Very recently that we realized why ice slippery you know I thought all of these things and I was wrong and that's a joy as ah as an author as a nerd that's I think that used to scare Me. You know when I set when I started out as ah as a baby Science writer and I'd find that daunting but now I just find it thrilling and I I.
57:29.79
talknerdy
So yeah.
57:37.55
talknerdy
He.
57:44.27
Laurie W
Can't imagine writing about stuff. Um without some mystery and and you know some some learning involved really.
57:51.10
talknerdy
Absolutely And I mean I think that there's always something in in the most mundane um experiences the most mundane encounters. There's always something lurking kind of beneath the surface that is fundamentally fascinating. That we just don't know or like and whether I'm saying Humanity doesn't know yet or maybe just me as an individual doesn't know because I never took the time to look it up. Um, you know every interaction. Every little thing I think has that potential and that's why books.
58:13.16
Laurie W
Um, um.
58:27.11
talknerdy
And and writing like the way that you write is so important because it it sheds light on the everyday. So now when you look at the things that you. And you and engage in your environment. Um, you're doing it in a slightly different way you you were able to have a little bit of a paradigm shift a little bit of a perspective shift and things are like it's like there's a sheen on everything now. It's a little bit brighter when you can understand it.
58:50.00
Laurie W
Thank you! That's a lovely thing to say and that's always my goal with the stuff like I want to bring my readers along with me when when we're so we're learning things together I guess and if I if if there's 1 thing that I want people to take away is that you know we don't actually understand everything and that's.
59:08.37
talknerdy
Yeah, and that's a good thing. Yeah I love it. Well you know the last time that um that we chatted I probably asked you my closing 2 questions because I do that with everybody unless I completely forgot um and of course I feel terrible because I didn't look back to see what your answers were.
59:09.32
Laurie W
Cool, Um, you know? yeah.
59:20.11
Laurie W
Um, oh yeah, oh yeah.
59:27.62
talknerdy
So we'll just pretend I never asked. Um, ah and whether you end up telling me the exact same thing you told me five years ago where yeah fuck gosh six years ago um or whether whether it's something completely new. Let's let's take a new stab at it. Yeah, okay so.
59:28.50
Laurie W
Um, okay, okay.
59:40.50
Laurie W
Um, okay yeah, when us.
59:45.40
talknerdy
So when you think to the future in whatever context is relevant to you right now. So obviously this could be informed by the sort of collective trauma that we're all dealing with it could be informed by the work that you do by anything in your personal life or by something much larger global cosmic. Whatever um.
59:52.11
Laurie W
Um, over.
01:00:03.47
talknerdy
First what is the thing that's keeping you up the most at night the thing that is concerning to you. You know? Maybe you're feeling pessimistic maybe even cynical. You know where are you struggling and then on the flip side of that. Um, where are you finding hope and optimism and and I mean authentic hope and opt and.
01:00:20.30
Laurie W
Um, yeah I'd like that you do it in this order. It's nice. No no close. Um, okay so a thing.
01:00:22.49
talknerdy
Optimism not like you know Pithy Instagram hope. Yeah I know I'm like I don't want to end like really sad so we'll start with the bad. Yeah.
01:00:39.38
Laurie W
But a thing that I'm most concerned about I Guess is how loud miss and disinformation is at this point in History. Um, you know I feel like we've never had better access to experts Thanks to social media etc and we've never known more about. How the universe works and how medicines work and all that stuff and and yeah, we're somehow in this situation where scientists are distrusted by large swathes of of the global population and and people with lived experience.
01:01:08.10
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:01:17.70
Laurie W
Lived experiences of of different things are undermined continuously. Um, so that and I don't really know what the way out of that is so that's definitely a big concern for me. Um, what am I optimistic about.
01:01:27.48
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:01:33.81
Laurie W
I think I think 1 thing I'm really optimistic about is that the scientific workforce is becoming more diverse and more representative of wider society. So you know we're seeing more women and indigenous people and and people of color disabled people those from the. Lgbtq plus community you know we're starting to see those people working in in the workforce and and also and as a result of that we're seeing more scientists realize that they they can and they should and that they have a responsibility to talk about issues that would you know traditionally have been seen as. Being outside the world of science. You know I definitely get I I used to get ah stick to the politics stick to the science you know stuff online you know don't be talking about politics but I don't get that as much anymore. Um, so yeah I do think we still need to do much more in this space. You know to make science more accessible.
01:02:13.57
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:02:32.90
Laurie W
Everyone but I am comforted that the future of science will be are hopeful. Maybe that the future of science will be less dominated by by white Western men.
01:02:42.29
talknerdy
Yeah, me too here here. Sister well gosh it has been such a joy talking with you again. I'm so glad that we were able to do this I've missed you. This has been fascinating I hope everybody runs out right now you can actually pre-order the books. Sticky the secret science of surfaces anywhere you get books. It's available here in the Us and I say here which is exclusionary and I apologize but just because the probably the vast majority of my listenership is in the Us maybe 80% plus um, but if you have access to the.
01:03:13.64
Laurie W
Are.
01:03:18.94
talknerdy
The UK version right? if you live in the u k or I think in Australia New Zealand or in other um, other countries where that's the market you can already get the book. It has the same name in um, in both markets sticky the secret science of surfaces. But yeah February first here in the us so exciting.
01:03:33.97
Laurie W
Yeah, and if you're not already sick of hearing my voice. There's even an audio book edition. It was terrifying car it was terrifying I did my best but.
01:03:38.82
talknerdy
Oh you got to read your own book dish. Oh that's so exciting. No I can tell you people are going to love it at least here in the Us like we go gago for an Irish accent. So it's like there's just something about the way our brains are wired.
01:03:55.48
Laurie W
Um, it.
01:03:57.52
talknerdy
Um, so yeah, Laurie thank you, thank you? Thank you so much I had um I had an absolute blast with you and u you for coming back week after week I'm really looking forward to the next time we all get together to talk nerdy.
01:04:03.81
Laurie W
Likewise Cara, thank you. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.
