Healthcare and Covid w/ Anthony Harris
In this episode of Talk Nerdy, Cara is joined by Dr. Anthony Harris, owner of HFit Health and board-certified physician in occupational and environmental medicine. They talk about the American healthcare system with a special focus on COVID-19 and wellness disparities. Follow Anthony: @DrAnthonyHarris.
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00:00.00
talknerdy
Well Anthony thank you so much for joining me today.
00:02.97
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Thank you so much for having me this is going to be a super pleasure. Been looking forward to it for some time.
00:11.87
talknerdy
Yay! Oh I'm so excited to be talking to you mostly because I think we don't do a lot of um medicine which means we don't do a whole whole lot of translational science on the show. We're not I mean sometimes we're lucky enough to talk about things that are like news you can use things that you know people have. Um, access to today but very often I'm talking about basic research on the show or I'm talking to journalists about their coverage of ah concepts stories experiences and that's the only time we really do I think dive ah into medicine. But it's rare that i.
00:46.33
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah.
00:48.58
talknerdy
Have physicians on the show. So I'm excited to talk to you. You're actually you're an MD mba mph so that's um, a medical doctor with a a masters of is a business administration. That's what that stands for right? Yeah, okay and then ah masters of public health.
00:54.33
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um.
01:01.58
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it. Ah.
01:05.48
talknerdy
So you're looking at sort of the individual but also the community when it comes to health and wellness.
01:11.95
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You got it you got it I mean you know I mean it kind of speaks to the core of who I am with the degrees that I've earned just because I've been you know as your the nature of this show I've been a consummate nerd right? since Birth and.
01:25.70
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:30.15
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
I'd always my mom would always say I grew up in the South I'm a son of a preacher baptist preacher and my mom would always say I beat to my own drum right? and so she'd tell me you know stories of and I remember them she'd say go go sweep the garage.
01:35.98
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:45.44
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And and so instead of taking 20 minutes to go sweep the garage I would spend 2 hours trying to invent a broom in a new way to expedite my sweeping of a garage. So ah, that kind of encapsulates. You know my journey in medicine and business and entrepreneurism.
01:54.85
talknerdy
Ah.
02:03.48
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And doing intellectual property and patenting things and it's been a fun ride so far.
02:07.39
talknerdy
I love that so there really is that sort of like Jack of all trades like I I feel like I feel you to to ah a large extent that I'm not good at doing. Only 1 thing I'm not good at sort of staying the course and having a very specific job and just.
02:20.90
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You know.
02:26.76
talknerdy
You know, keeping my head down and doing the same thing day after day after day sounds to me like you're very similar. You kind of want to have knives and a lot of fires.
02:33.65
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Absolutely you know to me that's you know that's where I'm having fun right? The more I'm learning and the more I'm understanding different idea spaces. Um, you know you you read Tom Kelly and innovation ideo and their whole. How they form new ideas. It's not through you know, basically de novo synthesis of thought is mixing ideas spaces together and that's when you know life really comes to even more you know color if you would when you have the realization that as. Um, you know as the incandescent light bub came to life. It wasn't de novo it was mixing the idea spaces of how do you create coal the the process of creating coal. Um and ah smoldering fire that led to Edison's discovery right? And that's.
03:13.58
talknerdy
E.
03:27.85
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
To me. That's it. That's fun that I could do for free. Fortunately I found a way to make money doing it. So.
03:28.60
talknerdy
H. Yeah, oh I love that I love that and I think it's it's really the only way to be in in our sort of modern world where there's so much talent so much innovation. So many ideas everywhere you look that. Um, kind of transcend. Cultures and transcend neighborhoods and transcend backgrounds that being able to connect to a lot of different people with their own unique experiences and sort of I don't know bring all of these different tentacles together. Um, it seems like that's. Kind of the new way for for many young people today. Kind of gone is the I work for the same corporation. You know from the time I was nineteen and I just like incrementally stepped up and stepped up and stepped up I just don't think those ah opportunities are very available anymore.
04:16.75
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah ha the horror.
04:24.12
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
I agree with you, you know? and and I think we're seeing that play out. Um in the marketplace right now we know the job market is extremely hot. Um, and employers are having to sell themselves ever more so perhaps than before.
04:41.00
talknerdy
E.
04:42.78
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
To employees potential employees you know and you were're seeing that in all sectors financial healthcare industrial sectors you know and it's just fascinating to see kind of macroscopically the evolution of society as we stand today and how the impact of covid. Has perhaps accelerated some of that evolution in a way towards just a different future. Not good or bad. It's just you know, different evolving and so love love to see how that will continue to unfold. Unfortunately as we deal with covid over the next two three years
05:18.10
talknerdy
Absolutely I think that there's been a sort of hope or a clinging that many people have had I've seen it because I work in Health care as well. Right now I'm doing my practicum training at a very large hospital here in L a in the cancer center.
05:33.46
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Here here.
05:35.78
talknerdy
And I definitely notice. Um that there's sort of an institutional and not just here I think across sort of Medicine. Um, there's sort of an institutional hope that like we will quote get back to normalcy that like this. Big diversion into telehealth like we can't quite bill it the same way and maybe we're not making as much money and so hopefully we'll be back to brick and mortar soon. But I think we're seeing that a it's providing access to medical services that never existed before that people who are too sick to travel people who are too unwell.
05:53.71
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
9
06:02.80
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And 4 No.
06:10.20
talknerdy
And and struggle with transportation costs and child care costs and all of those things can see their their providers now from the safety and comfort of their own home. This has to become the new normal.
06:19.60
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
It does I agree with you 100% right? It has to be because not only are people gaining more access. They're being more productive and you know outside of the other repercussions of Covid I think there. Happier in a way in that it's allowed individuals to be more introspective about what makes them Happy. Um and to sit and reflect in their day-to-day interactions and now we have more freedom to choose those interactions perhaps in this.
06:40.14
talknerdy
E.
06:54.10
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Quasi-re remote accessed world that we live in now than ever before and and and so it is fascinating to see how things will play out. We know 40% of the workforce will never go back to an in-office setting. That's the predictions in you know literature.
07:06.33
talknerdy
Wow.
07:10.29
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, we we know that health care will forever be changed. We've accelerated as you mentioned telemedicine by 10 years at least right? Um, and you know it's interesting to see how the silos that were built to maintain the status quo of um, let's just call it. Ah, twisted economics that's me as a you know Mckinsian Economist and to me anytime you disassociate the service from the payer. That's a twisted economic scenario right? But that's our health care system. You know I think we'll get closer and closer back to um what healthcare should be.
07:37.20
talknerdy
Mean.
07:47.99
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Like you said by gaining additional access but bringing the providers closer more easily to the patient experience.
07:54.92
talknerdy
You know I'm curious your your experience right? Obviously you have a very strong sort of business training and acumen and you've kind of brought that into your work but also this more kind of um, Community Health viewpoint. Um, and and and you're a physician right? You are trained as a physician so you're board certified in occupational and environmental Medicine I'm not sure that most that myself and also most of the listeners know what it.
08:28.80
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And yeah.
08:28.25
talknerdy
In God's name that it like what is occupational I mean that's job right? Occupational and environmental medicine. What does that mean? um.
08:34.50
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Sure so you you are not alone. You guys are in good company my own Mama right? Didn't know what specialty I was going into. She's like when I was already in residency I was already fully a doctor but she always said when you gonna be a real doctor. You know what is this? you know. What is this occupational therapy you're doing I'm like mom. It's not occupational therapy I actually prescribe and I see patients. Um, so the practice of occupational and environmental medicine. The board certification falls under this umbrella of preventative health. Um, and there's 3 disciplines under that umbrella. And our board certification preventative health there's kind of this offshoot of armed services if you would a flight surgeon type preventative health and then are specialty occupational and environmental medicine.
09:19.34
talknerdy
E.
09:26.60
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And especially itself is about a hundred years old at most and that's before it became branded as such and we're the Docs that ended up becoming expertise in workplace exposures right? And so if you are working in an environment that exposes you to asbestos.
09:29.37
talknerdy
Okay.
09:45.98
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
We're the Docs that are tasked with keeping you safe and making sure your exposure doesn't kill you or you know, affect your family because you're bringing these contaminants home which definitely was the case with Asbestos Um, and and so as we you know progress through the evolution of our.
09:53.76
talknerdy
Bright.
10:03.23
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, ah practice. We've gone from those you know, kind of how do we keep 1 workers alive at the worksite from the early days of our profession fifty one hundred years ago to now how do we optimize the experience for work for the workforce. When they're at work right? How do we not just keep you in a state of a so asymptomatic experience but more so how do we improve your performance. How do we enhance your your mental wellbeing so that if you are a developer for Amazon.
10:30.88
talknerdy
E e.
10:39.10
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, we can help ah you perform your best and and in turn help the rest of society by what you're doing right? So It's definitely a shift away from just the kind of run of the Mill What we call bread and butter occupational health to this complete. Holistic approach to an individual and their experience with ah how they engage with work on a day-to-day basis.
11:04.33
talknerdy
Ah, very cool I could see that there. There's likely some real crossover with the specialty in psychology of um, industrial organizational Psychology Um, a big part of that is sort of going into the workplace and saying you know how can people thrive How can people find. Not just the job that they do but their role within a community or within a hierarchy and and contribute in a way that is meaningful to them and have good mental health at work which is um, you know as we know what work is like what is it like 75% of our lot.
11:38.70
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um.
11:42.15
talknerdy
Like in the west work is everything and I think that's you know in some ways a problem but I love to see that there are these efforts being made to say you know sort of our culture is that we're going to spend a lot of time at work and that work is going to become a part of our identity. It's going to become a part of ah.
11:43.90
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
No, no, but her.
11:59.14
talknerdy
Our sense of self and so how can we improve our relationship with work and how can we be not just safe and healthy. But you know potentially thrive in our um in our occupation.
12:10.40
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yeah, absolutely absolutely and you know just to kind of my and I'll do this in this venue because I feel like I have the freedom to do so just because you know we we are We are nerd friendly like myself right? And so.
12:18.74
talknerdy
E.
12:24.85
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
I think about the future of work and the auspices of Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future if we look at star trek and we look at the professions that individuals have no one's working for income. Everyone has all their essential needs. Met the replicators make the food.
12:29.83
talknerdy
Ok, ah.
12:44.47
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You know you have companionship with your colleagues and you know they are out exploring the cosmos and they're all doing their focused job because they enjoy it. They don't have to be right? but they're doing it because it's what their passion is right? and so you know.
12:59.11
talknerdy
Yeah.
13:02.66
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
I Think as we hopefully progress through the evolution of our society in reality it will mirror more so that vision that Gene Rodinberry had and in regards to letting people do and live to work versus work to live.
13:18.70
talknerdy
Yes, oh my gosh and so I've got to ask then being a fellow southerner and I heard it in your voice earlier when you said umbrella which is how I say the word too. Ah yeah because I grew up born in race lived in Texas until I was in my mid 20 s so that's you know that's home to me.
13:20.79
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
If that makes sense.
13:25.48
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, nice, nice. Ah yes, so.
13:36.84
talknerdy
Um, and where did you grow up. Actually you mentioned a son of a preacher but ah.
13:39.80
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yeah, yeah, so I was born in Nashville Tennessee we moved to Florida when I was 3 and I grew up in central Florida a little bit in Jacksonville 3 years and then 45 minutes southeast of Orlando a place called Melbourne Florida.
13:54.72
talknerdy
E.
13:56.45
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Palm Bay we're about 20 minutes or so south of where the space show used to live off and so we we very much grew up I was a space kid I was in a Nasa program for ah from ninth grade until I graduated high school and thought I was going to become an astronaut wanted to for a long time but when I finally got my shot.
13:59.92
talknerdy
Ok.
14:16.27
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
In med school I was talking to a recruiter said hey you know I'm recruiting for some Nasa you know to become an astronaut you you know anybody interested and I was doing general surgery going into general surgery I passed on the opportunity actually because at that point I had fallen in. Love.
14:23.73
talknerdy
You're no way.
14:33.78
talknerdy
Ah.
14:35.65
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
With business and I had already gone down the route of getting my Mba and I had already had a couple patents under my belt and so but it's just been. Um, you know fascinating to see how now space has come back to the forefront in the minds of people from having grown up as a space and you know.
14:52.37
talknerdy
Yeah.
14:54.54
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Aspiring Astronaut to where now more reinspired by space exploration in a different way.
14:59.40
talknerdy
Oh for sure. There's a whole new sort of movement. That's I think captured the imagination of young people it all you know, sort of parallel with some Apollo Era um inspiration and excitement. Um I'm curious.
15:11.72
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes, yes.
15:15.15
talknerdy
You know you mentioned you grew up in the south I grew up in the south. There is very often a curious and unique and I think in many ways, very culture-bound. Um. Politic ideology ah viewpoint that is marinated in the south and it's you know, different for different people depending on obviously like I said cultural backgrounds. But you you were kind of hinting to something that. I don't want to speak for you right? So I want to know your your viewpoint on this but I am born and bred in Texas but like literally the most progressive thinker and am so all about the concepts of like universal health care universal basic income these ideas that I think personally would need to.
15:52.58
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yeah.
16:02.50
talknerdy
Be the seeds of that roddenberry esque future of work and so I'm curious What your take is working within a medical system that I personally believe and this is just my viewpoint is very very um, broken and not just broken like kind of immoral. Um, I'm curious. What your views are when it comes to sort of how we've capitalized medicine and also you know how you navigate with that.
16:28.84
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Sure So it's interesting my viewpoint right? and I struggle internally with the dichotomy of two things that I do hold to be true right? um.
16:33.49
talknerdy
Oh.
16:42.22
talknerdy
E.
16:45.41
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
I love the vision and believe it is the future of humanity to achieve the vision of gene ronberry in which you know for Dr Crusher on next generation to treat you? Um, she's not going to ask for your insurance right? She's not going to ask? how are you paying for this visit.
16:59.57
talknerdy
Ray.
17:03.71
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You know it's beam me to the Sick Bay and take care of me. Um, but and you're right I agree to get there. We need more universality in terms of access. So I am very much a proponent of that I am progressive I was the kid arguing with my baptist minister father that you know.
17:05.63
talknerdy
Yeah.
17:22.76
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, both evolution and creationism can coexist right? Um, and when we look at then that philosophy and vision for the future and access I do also subscribe to what Napoleon Hill writes about.
17:25.64
talknerdy
And we.
17:41.49
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
In regards to the self- motivattivation self- achievement um opportunities that help create and forge the nation to begin with right? The US to begin with and the opportunity to help.
17:51.72
talknerdy
E.
17:58.33
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
1 ne's self and their neighbors and community because I think we I know we don't do this in isolation but to be able to differentiate and see a vision and and go for a future that it will take investment but you have an opportunity to reap benefit from that investment right? So you know i. You have the juxtaposition of those 2 philosophies or that that vision of gene and then Napoleon's approach that aren't either 1 of them are not wrong, right? It's just what's the bridge to get there right to and to me that.
18:20.23
talknerdy
Yeah.
18:30.97
talknerdy
Right? Exactly given that we live in in the system that we live in I mean the truth is out there like ah the truth is other um, but like you can open your eyes and say you know this is the system that we have so how do we get to this other place. You.
18:38.81
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um.
18:47.61
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes.
18:49.50
talknerdy
You almost can't make just a huge left turn you have to sort of iterate and and how do we do that You know that's a tough. Obviously it's a big question I don't expect you to solve. But I I bring it up partially because it's It's been on my mind lately but partially because of some of the the things that you mentioned but I was.
18:54.78
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it. That's exactly it that.
19:08.40
talknerdy
With a a dear friend of mine who lives in Australia and we were talking about covid and we were talking about access and we were talking about our health care systems and you know ah national health services. You know the differences sort of between the US and Australia the US and and the U K and and most industrialized nations that have some form of national health care.
19:20.82
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
1 more.
19:27.85
talknerdy
Um, and he asked me like a very poignant question I'm trying to I'm scrolling to see if I can find it. Um he said ah you know there are shortcomings with universal health care. But the poor aren't left for dead. What did he say who goes what happens to people with psychosis who can't work.
19:32.47
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You know.
19:45.55
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ahha aha.
19:45.57
talknerdy
Just straight up. Ask that like in your country What happens with people who fundamentally struggle in a way that precludes them from exactly what we were talking about this idea of like kind of being able to I don't know contribute to the workforce being able to hold down a job being it. You know some people are.
19:52.41
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, yeah, yeah.
20:04.48
talknerdy
Too Ill Some people are too. Um, they struggle too much and our system doesn't really allow for that very well you know and my answer I couldn't come up with a good one I was like a lot of them are homeless. Sadly.
20:14.75
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Well that that's exactly it I mean not only if you know the rosy way of looking at it is We don't handle it Well the practical perhaps somewhat cynical way of looking at it is we criminalize them right in a lot of ways right? and.
20:21.88
talknerdy
Right? Yes, we absolutely do.
20:31.95
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You know, having experienced you know, acute psychotic care at Indiana University when I was in residency you know we we routinely would have our patients brought to us by law enforcement because they were you know, picked up on the streets and.
20:35.98
talknerdy
E.
20:51.28
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You know I remember this one young lady um came to our ward as we as I cared for her as her primary physician in the in the acute care for so psychosis. Um, and she was from ah ah I believe she was like from Nebraska. Right wasn't even from Indianapolis but started her journey states away and ended up on the streets in Indianapolis because of the psychosis she was having paranoid you know in a paranoid state and so it's like how does one traverse.
21:20.88
talknerdy
Yeah.
21:30.30
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That distance right? without anybody intervening to help right? Um, and it all the time. That's it.
21:33.67
talknerdy
Right? And it happens all the time because they're forgotten. They're passed over and like you said criminal like we criminalize poverty in this country like our our our actual institutions are built that way like we we when somebody quote commits a crime whether you know we can argue whether.
21:42.29
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes, yes.
21:53.25
talknerdy
What they did with criminal or not very often. The quote punishment within our judicial system is monetary I mean by definition that's criminalizing poverty.
21:53.51
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yeah. Yeah,, that's it. That's it. That's it, you know and it's it's not slowing down. Let's put it that way unfortunately and you know I think we are you know more and more people are waking up to the the presence.
22:06.25
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
22:17.99
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Of these type of infrastructural biases right? I think covid has highlighted that right if we look at some covid statistics if you make more than eighty thousand dollars you're more you are 90% or more likely to be vaccinated so what is that.
22:34.30
talknerdy
Right.
22:37.31
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
What does that mean, right? What does that tell us about the income gap right? or about access or about philosophical approach to messaging to people around what's prudent to do for your own health and Wellness. We shouldn't have an economic gap on. Philosophical approach to Health care in terms of what's best for human existence. They're just it shouldn't be that way but it is and so one has to ask the question is there strategic messaging in place that is um, designed.
23:02.53
talknerdy
Right.
23:14.78
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
To disadvantage from an social economic standpoint a population of people.
23:21.70
talknerdy
You're so right I mean I think this is such.. It's a hard thing for people who really value education and especially the scientific message I think or the scientific method to really sit with are the comparisons between the historical and present rule by sort of. The wealthy white male elite class and we can look to Colonialism. We can look to all of these examples and it's very clear on its face the damage that that has done to um, people who have been oppressed by those groups but it's sort of hard then to see the parallel between. The educated elite class today. The lawmakers or the um, the public health officials and see that there's a big income gap there too. So when speaking to the greater Public. You can't speak the language of the educated elite. Always you can't you You can't like.. What's best for you in your own mind. It doesn't always translate you still need a plurality of voices in the room and I think we're we're missing that because very often people who kind of came up through academia are like yeah but I'm right? Yeah,, they're like but but this is.
24:29.26
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, ah.
24:33.20
talknerdy
This is reality and this is objective and I'm right and this is what's best for people and it's like this is still kind of a colonial perspective and I think we have to be really careful and introspect a lot and recognize that about ourselves.
24:39.90
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Oh. Agree a hundred percent you know I mentioned Napoleon Hill earlier but it you know he speaks to one of the keys to success right? You know if you read his materials and one of them is openmindedness. Um, and we find very easily that. You know if you are not open minded to all literally all concepts all walks of life. Um, you know the ability to learn or the mentality that you can learn from anybody in any position. Um, that's what we're missing in today's society right.
25:15.57
talknerdy
Row. Yeah.
25:22.70
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And it speaks to a close-mindedness that has produced these huge gaps in philosophical approaches. Um, and um I know this is a different topic for a different day where we know that social media can um you know focus individuals down one direction and.
25:34.58
talknerdy
Well.
25:42.42
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You know, ah blind them to you know opportunities to think differently. But it's things that we hopefully recognize more and more we're going in the wrong direction I think unfortunately but we have to you know, reverse things if we aren't going to get to the point where we're able to achieve Roddenberry's vision right? because imagine. You know this is my personal belief. There are you know intelligent beings aside from ourselves in the universe but just imagine the first encounter experience of our current close-minded society with a new species.
26:06.38
talknerdy
E e.
26:17.50
talknerdy
Oh it's like yeah, it's a rival. It's every movie we've ever seen where it's like a hostile military experience. Yeah.
26:23.40
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Exactly exactly and what tremendous opportunities we will miss to advance our own society if we ever should have the opportunity for that first contact experience right? So it's it's just I don't know I mean. At times as a physician right? Um there's been times where I literally had to dig deep to stay positive on the approach we've had as a society towards health care right? Um, of are we heading in the right direction or the wrong direction. Um, as a e.
26:53.21
talknerdy
Yeah.
27:01.88
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Someone who studies economy you know, got that I you know I got my Nba in the whole 9 again had to dig deep about how we as a society approach economic prosperity for the masses right? and then if we look at the public health factor.
27:14.71
talknerdy
E.
27:20.32
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Covid has now made it very hard to see how we're going to exist on the other side of this pandemic together and not divided right? and it's just I don't know it's it's it's stressful at times I'm not going to lie.
27:28.20
talknerdy
Right.
27:36.45
talknerdy
Ah, for sure and I think you know obviously that's that's sort of the million dollar question here and that's something that I was so excited to have you on the show to talk about was not just our our current health care system. But how it's sort of. Been how covid has highlighted has shown a light on a lot of the things that are working and the things that really aren't working and and really I would love to talk to you. Ah you know about busting myths around um around. What we should be doing about covid you know misinformation around the virus like this is a huge huge topic but I think sort of the first big thing to grapple with is the idea that people have become somewhat entrenched. Um, how do we I don't know.
28:14.22
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Aha aha.
28:27.73
talknerdy
Tell me what you think about this I remember reading this was months ago now but some of the literature sort of coming out of like the science of science communication and and sort of the psychology of of patient values and things like that that. Sort of more entrenched people whether they were vaccine hesitant or whether they you know had anti-vax rhetoric. So depending you know it it sort of didn't seem to matter where their reasoning came from but people who were refusing or quite resistant to get vaccinated or do a lot of preventive health things around the virus wear masks. You know, social distance all that.
29:00.76
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
A.
29:02.46
talknerdy
The number 1 influencing factor for them to change their minds was their doctor like if people were going to switch and say you know maybe I should do you know, get the vaccine. Maybe I should it wasn't because social media told them to it wasn't because a neighbor told them to it wasn't because their family told them to. You know they were in their echo chambers and they were going to believe what they were going to believe but when their trusted family physician said to them you know Joe? Whatever you believe truth is why not just hedge your bets come on man get the shot. It's important they would do it and so they're still regardless of this like.
29:34.37
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Oh wow.
29:40.86
talknerdy
Massive What what I see is like sort of this scary distrust and Authority and distrust in in sort of our physicians and our public health officials I Think at the personal individual level people still do trust their doctors.
29:53.20
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yeah I would agree with you, you know and I think it's the notion that who when when when you're affected when when your health is on the lie right? Who are you going to turn to right? Where do you go for that help right.
30:03.82
talknerdy
E.
30:11.62
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, and the fact that you know individuals still won trust the system enough you know to come to a physician right? or the nurse practitioner or the Clinician Um, you know is telling and I hadn't heard that statistic before.
30:19.65
talknerdy
Now.
30:29.79
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Right on that study I definitely am going to go go out and find it and read it but it it is comforting to me as a physician to know that you know, um the influence is perhaps because it's the messaging and the relationship.
30:47.62
talknerdy
Yeah.
30:49.14
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Right? The trusted relationship and then the messaging that you know and the recognition that as a physician I I Honestly don't have anything to gain or lose personally in your health right? and my patient's health but it is the.
31:02.65
talknerdy
Right.
31:08.91
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Level to which I take one pride and it's an honor to be able to assist someone in their own health journey right? that I hold dearly right? and that is and I Think. You know, no no matter your take on physicians and you know being cynical towards them or not you know for the most part I think physicians hold that very dear to them that the privilege to be able to Intervene on the behalf of someone and recommend what the right move should be. For the health and well-being of that individual. Um, and I definitely value The you know the opinions of physicians that are on the other side of this than I am in terms of should you get vaccinated should you not I still work with them at the you know at the group that I'm a part of now.
32:00.81
talknerdy
Interesting.
32:02.46
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, and and it's good though to have the different frame of approach right? um of eat because to me it's only when we have you know all ideas on the table that we know we're going to arrive at the best solution. For all of us to move forward with um, it's only when we're talking misinformation that we have all all potential harm and no benefit whereas contrasting opinions. You still get benefit from a collective understanding of.
32:30.81
talknerdy
Right.
32:39.62
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
What we see in the clinical literature What we see playing out from an epidemiologic standpoint and you know anecdotally what we experience as physicians. That's what comes to the forefront when you have that healthy exchange versus misinformation in in the mix.
32:52.32
talknerdy
Yeah, and being able to know the difference between those things is so important you know I think before we even dive into that because I do want to get into the misinformation I'm I'm heavily reminded of like a physician on Twitter who I follow tweeted is a while back now but something very kind of poignant. About how and if it felt cynical but at the same time you know I was trying to empathize with her position that like she was exhausted and she was frustrated and she you know she's like on the front lines all the time seeing all these people who didn't do anything preventive come in so sick desperate for treatment.
33:27.56
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Oh.
33:31.63
talknerdy
And she was getting frustrated and you could hear it in her words it was something along the lines of it's funny how they don't want to listen to me. Ah, when it comes to preventing getting sick but the minute that they're sick. They'll do everything I Recommend you know they're desperate for my help and.
33:45.73
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, and I thought.
33:50.83
talknerdy
It's easy to sort of see that and hear that and go and get cynical and be like yeah f them Blah Blah Blah I'm so angry. But I think there's another side to that which is so important, especially for those of us who are maybe in that position Of. Pro-vaccination who are in that position of Pro-public health like yes I'm looking at the literature I want to make evidence-based medical decisions and it's very easy to get very high and mighty and I think it's important to stop and go. Okay, so what is going on there with these patients and what can we learn from this.
34:13.10
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And.
34:21.19
talknerdy
Clearly we're not getting to them in the prevention communication. But we are getting to them in the desperate. This is my last chance communication. Where's the disconnect. How can we take this information and do better as opposed to f them there a lost cause let's you know, shrug them off.
34:28.73
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, her or her.
34:34.88
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Right? right? right? No I That's fascinating in terms of you know what? it would. How do we use this right to learn how to not just intervene but to engage. It's all about engagement right? Um, and if we.
34:43.90
talknerdy
He. Yeah.
34:54.36
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Engage around you know? Okay, so I told you I'm under the umbrella of preventative health you know much of what we do is not treatment. It's preventative right? I do your physical if you're new to a job to make sure that the job is not going to cause you to have a rot cuffed hair on day. 3 of the job right? You know and.
34:57.60
talknerdy
E e.
35:09.31
talknerdy
Right.
35:13.21
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
If You have an impact from a respiratory illness I Want to make sure you're around. You know these chemicals that can have ah a detriment to somebody with preexisting conditions from a respiratory standpoint to not cause harm to you right? So It's all preventative and outside of. Regulatory This is kind of the microcosm of getting back to the macro level. Um, it wasn't until we had legislation in place that compelled companies to put in safety measures via Osha um that we had the level of safety protocols and preventative.
35:34.24
talknerdy
Yeah.
35:50.73
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Implements implementations to protect workers. So it's the question of like how do we engage and get people to do quote unquote the right thing not just for others but for themselves if we're looking at the economic perspective from you know, operational standpoint. Companies didn't by far and large do that till 9090 and Osha had to promulgate legislation to force them to do so right? Um, and so if we dial that back to the individual. Obviously the latest attempt at doing the right thing at the individual level from the regulatory standpoint or. Legislative standpoint was the federal mandate for large employers right? and we saw that that was you know, ah considered an overreach by the supreme court of authority from a osha standpoint but it still begs the question can we get people engaged enough in what.
36:31.56
talknerdy
Yeah.
36:46.99
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Prevention looks like for themselves to the extent that they do something about it right? And that's ever more the challenge in Preventative Health care because 1 no one wants to pay for prevention right? You're paying for something you're paying for The. Avoidance of something that may never happen right? and it right right.
37:08.41
talknerdy
It's true and so it's hard for people to see the ah roi even though it is there. It's just not immediate and you have to calculate. It is like a larger thing with externalized costs at it end and people don't like that they want immediate one to 1 Ah rois.
37:21.50
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Exactly And so now if we translate money ah roi into time a temporal ah roi people don't understand or see the value add of investing their time to do and participate in healthy behavior.
37:25.38
talknerdy
E.
37:39.48
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Because they don't connect it with the RRoi benefit of longevity and prevention of health right? and and so that's where we gotta get at we have to strengthen the association of a you know we always say ah ah, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound a cure but at the end of the day.
37:42.99
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
37:55.32
talknerdy
M.
37:59.50
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
How do we sell that to individuals right? How do we get that to the level where the majority of people are participating in preventative actions that are going to benefit themselves and vice versa benefit their community because now they're able to contribute at levels beyond what they could have. In a unhealthy state. Perhaps right? and you know again going back to Gene Roddenberry right I don't know if this was intentional or not. But if you look at the casting of characters in that series right.
38:17.13
talknerdy
Right.
38:37.00
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
How often did you see ill individuals right? if you look at the population casted in you know star trek the next generation. It does not mirror the um morphhologic picture of the Us.
38:38.55
talknerdy
E e.
38:52.70
talknerdy
Yeah, you're right.
38:56.20
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
So What you know was there a breakthrough in terms of you know, healthy behavior modification and the roi that people recognize right? I think there was because the moment you take out the need to work to live right. Perhaps we then can focus more on the quality of living.
39:18.32
talknerdy
Oh absolutely I mean if you were probably I'm guessing and this this data these data are probably out there. But if you were to do just kind of an open ended survey of you know X number of Americans random survey.
39:26.22
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
The home.
39:34.26
talknerdy
You know how? how much do you exercise? How much do you focus on eating healthy blah blah blah and then they were to tell you and then you were say you know? Ah, what is the number 1 thing preventing you from doing that they would probably all say I'm too damn busy I don't have enough time I'm exhausted at the end of the day. It's hard for me to.
39:45.48
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, right right.
39:51.86
talknerdy
To exercise because I have to put all my effort and energy into my job and rearing my children and you know all all the different responsibilities that I have like it's a luxury to be able to do self-care.
39:56.17
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, yeah, and they're not wrong, right? if we break it down to the psychology of the human you know disposition. We know that it takes willpower. To execute on a regimen of healthy behavior to exercise to you know to not eat ah foods that may have a detrimental effect over time on our bodies and we know that that willpower is consumed through focused activities that may not be.
40:16.57
talknerdy
Mean.
40:31.13
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Again, focused on our own health and well-being I E our jobs right? If we're making widgets on the front line that does take will to make sure that you're not making any errors and that you know you're having to deal with the complexities of your day in a work environment and so at the end of the day literally your will is spent and it's.
40:32.83
talknerdy
Right.
40:49.40
talknerdy
You're so right? Yeah, you're you're like your frontal lobe is done. Yeah.
40:50.48
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And so that's it that is it and so we have created in the aspiration of becoming a hard working nation a nation of low will power at the end of the day because we spend it towards activities that are not geared towards. Creating that healthy environment for the individual.
41:10.57
talknerdy
And of course my view is that you know a lot of this is tied up with our kind of obsessive um relentless almost religious um ah, worship of capitalism like this is this is personally how I feel um and because the truth is.
41:22.22
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Oh the heart.
41:28.12
talknerdy
Everything is all about more efficiency more like each each ah quarter a company is expected to earn more and more and more and like it is a 0 ero-sum game like at a certain point. There's no more to earn and just like with us you know, constantly like how do I give more? how do I do more? How do I do better.
41:39.91
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Are.
41:46.37
talknerdy
It's relentless and and how does that sort of um promote Balance. How does that promote well-being self-care which we know a lot of well-being and self-care is about taking a step back taking time breathing doing things for ourselves that are. In some ways indirect contradiction to working harder Better faster stronger earning more you know those things are in conflict with one another.
42:08.22
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yeah, well you know that's a great point and you know it talks about our focus where is our focus is it external right in terms of what does productivity look like or is it.
42:20.65
talknerdy
E.
42:27.95
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, internal like can we develop a stronger internal locus of control to understand that you know how can I become better or I become focused in you know if we shift away from how can I do better in terms of you know productivity. Externally how can I make myself better through you know all these things you spoke to the mindfulness The you know, healthy behaviors. Perhaps if we can start to shift people more centric in that thought then we will see you know an opportunity for us to. Climb out from whence we came or are coming which is you know this? It's all focused on external productivity. Our metrics are wrong, right? What gets measured gets done and rarely do we take time to introspect and measure. How am I.
43:11.97
talknerdy
I agree it? Yeah yeah.
43:24.66
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
How am I performing as an individual am I at my peak. My best of what I can be you know um, has just thinking about that from that kind of ah what is it called witnessed observer mentality if you would.
43:38.71
talknerdy
Yeah, kind of like stepping back turning turning in on yourself and really seeing that you know ah very often in Therapy. One of the things that I recommend to the patients that I work with is that metaphor of being on the airplane and there's low Oxygen and the. The masks fall down and what do they always say to you in the in the safety video at the beginning every time put yours on before you help anybody else yet when we watch a movie where there's a a disaster and a trauma who are the Heroes. They're the people who Forego putting on their mask so they can rush out and try to help everybody out but then they die they burn out.
43:57.12
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes, yes, that's it.
44:11.42
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, yes, yes, yes.
44:16.68
talknerdy
They you know they're not taking care of themselves first which means that yeah, okay, they've they've saved 3 others but in the process they've they've eaten up all of their oxygen and we never highlight the people who put on their mask first and then save their families or put on their mask first and help everybody in their row and those are the people for whom they can have.
44:29.43
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Right? right.
44:36.80
talknerdy
Both they survived and they did what they could do for their neighbors or for their job or for their family. You know, whatever. However, you want to extend the metaphor. Um, but we're just not trained to think that way and that's a problem. Yeah.
44:40.52
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it. That's it Yes yes, agreed agreed I mean yeah, we've kind of twisted Selflessness um to is extreme. And neglect the self in that process and you know correct. That's it. Yeah, it's not true. Exactly. Yeah yeah, it's It's a.
45:00.61
talknerdy
Go right? Yeah like heroism means that we can't do anything for ourselves which is not true. Yeah yeah.
45:16.40
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
It definitely you know is interesting to see how culturally we have arrived there. Um you know, particularly when you still have a very much contrasted culture across the pond. Um I still get kind of a tickle every time and and. And maybe a little envious when I work with and consult with companies that take the entire month of August off in Europe you know and it's like wow that's I wish I get to I mean usually the first thing out of my in other people's mouth was I wish.
45:45.43
talknerdy
Ah I want yeah.
45:52.79
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
I could or we could take the entire month off you know? Um, but in practice there's no reason why we couldn't right. It's just a matter of our culture is not that um so it's exactly.
45:57.85
talknerdy
Right? Yeah, yeah, and we haven't made space for it. So You know like it was like a left turn we were talking about you can't do it overnight because we've built up an entire structure that is an obsessive you know. A structure that's obsessed with productivity. Yeah.
46:18.46
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it. That's it. Yeah, but and at the end of the day are we more productive. That's the metric that I don't correct correct because you know being busy is not the same as productivity right? um.
46:22.60
talknerdy
Except where are we just more burnt out bitter. Yeah yeah.
46:35.20
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And I think sometimes or oftentimes we let that metric kind of fall through the cracks right? um.
46:41.87
talknerdy
You're so right like there's that there's that big study that came out of I think it was like Denmark or Sweden recently where there was a big government kind of funded thing to drop the workweek down to 34 hours and then they looked at all these different metrics across the board and they were like weirdly.
46:52.91
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Oh yes.
46:58.35
talknerdy
Are still getting just as much if not more done and they're working fewer hours. But yeah.
47:01.56
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it. That's it. yeah yeah I mean we know the psychology of productivity like the average person has 4 hours of productivity in their day for we have an 8 hour day by standard and oftentimes that's a 10 or 12 hour day right.
47:10.70
talknerdy
He he. Right? yeah.
47:18.60
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, so it really begs the question and you know one of my one of the books I read recently called the productivity project where this I think it was like 18 year old did a series of. Experiments on himself to see if he can maximize his productivity you know using caffeine religiously staying staying up longer hours burning the night you know the the candle that both ends or sleeping more you know and so you walk through his story of an experience of these.
47:41.50
talknerdy
M.
47:46.88
talknerdy
Yeah.
47:55.64
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Experiments on himself and at the end of the day. The recommendation you know of the book is take care of self first and that will maximize your productivity and whatever you're doing you know? so.
48:02.40
talknerdy
Yes, yes, yes, ah.
48:10.32
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
It's a message we have to circle back to over and over.
48:12.62
talknerdy
Absolutely and you know I think 1 thing that's really important for us to to spend some time and given that we're still in a very um, ah difficult part of the covid story. Um.
48:28.60
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Here.
48:30.80
talknerdy
You touched on it a few minutes ago so I want to circle back to it. You were touching on sort of the american way and american culture and sort of the differences between you know what's going on here versus across the pond and of course there's also we can talk about western culture versus eastern culture. But even within America you know and this may be. Curious to people who are listening to show from outside of America but probably a lot of people who live here are going to be vigorously nodding. Um, we have so many different subcultures within America right? There's southern culture versus midwestern culture versus coastal culture. There's um.
49:02.88
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah.
49:05.85
talknerdy
Ah, left versus right? There's you know, different ethnic cultures different racial cultures and but collectively often when we talk about the milieu that makes up american culture. It's so you know it's kind of got like a white male lens to it. You know like let's be honest, that's sort of but when we talk about America as a whole we're talking about his.
49:18.55
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yeah, Sharon sure.
49:25.90
talknerdy
Who Historically had the power um and the truth of the matter is when it comes back to misinformation around Covid Nineteen I think we have a tendency to paint with a very broad brush. There's the people that are in the know and the people that are evidence-based and the people that are you know, getting vaccinated and getting boosted and doing everything right? and. And there's those people who just are denialists but it's not that simple is it.
49:49.70
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
It's not right? Um, you know I think it's it's unfortunate the way we've allowed and I'm not trying to harp on media right? but.
50:02.50
talknerdy
E.
50:06.81
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
There's some, there's a concept of call. There's a concept I think Napoleon Hill was the first you know to talk about it in this context, you know being accurate thinkers as a goal in life right? um and to speak to things that are factual right.
50:13.91
talknerdy
Okay, yeah.
50:24.75
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
When you're speaking to anything and even a layer ah deeper than that if you're talking about your own productivity to speak to those facts that are concerning your goals and that you're trying to achieve right? and I think we've you know as exemplified in the statistics that have shown us. Things that trend the fastest are not the facts but the misinformation right? Um, and that is what's alarming that we have created this environment in which consumption has.
50:46.85
talknerdy
Right? absolutely.
51:02.35
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, trumped everything right? The quality if in this not only pertains to our knowledge right? And what we perceive to be fact or not fact that this is quality of our food right? consumption trumps everything. Um.
51:02.97
talknerdy
Yeah.
51:19.60
talknerdy
Yeah.
51:22.50
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And this is consumption of our time. It's not about quality of how you spend your time in terms of you know? are you productive based upon your own metrics. It's you know gotten to the point where you know it's what consumes the most of your time. Perhaps is not the most productive use of that time right? But we're we're in this a point of Society. Yes.
51:44.63
talknerdy
Oh it's like the opposite. It's like yeah like we want the most saturated the most calorically dense the most um ah the strongest flavor you know the most um, let's say distracting and and we don't.
51:57.81
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes.
52:03.87
talknerdy
We're a culture not of less is more. We're like well no more is more like give me give me it all because yeah, that's and and it's hard for people to like detox from that. It's hard for them to take a step back and feel. It's one of those weird things. It's like it's ah it's like drug cessation in a way the the part where you quit.
52:05.35
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
More is more exactly So it.
52:20.67
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it. That's it yes.
52:23.54
talknerdy
Hurts. But once you're on the other side of it. You're like holy this is what it feels like to be healthy again.
52:27.46
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes, yeah I mean we are on a constant dopaminergic kick and it starts from it literally starts from childhood right? I mean I watch my sixteen month old son engage with you know my cell phone.
52:31.96
talknerdy
Yes.
52:47.90
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And the joy he gets from swiping at sixteen months I'm like holy crap I got to get this out of his hands because I I mean there's clearly evidence that it's bad for him to begin with at that age particularly but just to see it play out so clearly.
52:48.22
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
53:05.81
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That are consumption and like you said you know it's you know, almost? Well I guess at the end of the day the sad but to me the saddest or the most alarming part is it's been normalized that this is what everyone is doing so there. The.
53:18.75
talknerdy
Oh completely normalized. Yes.
53:25.14
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Oddball is the person who's not consuming um at the levels of everyone else and so it's the race to the top of maslow's hierarchy of needs and at the end of the day. Um I don't know where that leaves. Well.
53:27.70
talknerdy
You know.
53:44.33
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
I have my druthers about where that leaves us. But if you look at the evolution of societies over time but unique to the US in our current position. You know where is I going to leave my kids my four year old and my sixteen month old you know a decade or 2 decades from now right.
53:45.94
talknerdy
So yeah.
54:01.99
talknerdy
Yeah.
54:03.83
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
If we're already at that level Now that's what gets me, you know, definitely worried.
54:08.33
talknerdy
And it it it almost like what I think of as a perfect sort of ah metaphor for this is the US when we look at Hunger like poverty and hunger in the us these basic core human needs that are just heartbreaking.
54:19.76
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Know.
54:26.80
talknerdy
And we compare what does hunger in the US look like compared to hunger in certain countries in Sub-saharan Africa and we look at the actual physique of an individual who is hungry in the US hunger is linked to obesity because we're eating things that are calorically dense but have no nutritional value.
54:31.53
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
E. Um, ah that.
54:45.86
talknerdy
And whereas in in many other parts of the world. Hunger is linked to starvation. It's linked to an anorexic view of the body. Um, and I think that's a perfect example. It's like we're starving ourselves with too much you know and and that yeah.
54:49.24
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes.
55:00.93
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's good and that goes back.
55:02.93
talknerdy
It applies to everything it applies to our consumption of media of food of of toxic. You know positivity of of ah productivity all of those things.
55:05.75
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah.
55:14.32
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it. That's it so shifting you know our existence from volume to quality right? That is the movement we need right on on all at all levels.
55:20.69
talknerdy
He E E yeah.
55:30.42
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's what I mean because again you look at I know I keep going back I'm a true nerd I Keep going back to Star Trek but but if you look at the quality um of the things presented in that. Ah you know vision. Um.
55:34.98
talknerdy
Yeah, hell yeah, ah.
55:49.64
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
You know they they the the characters you know, not only were expertise in their own individual roles and field that they were there on the you know enterprise to to execute on but they also had these other passions right? playing you know, ah the trombone or the Violin you know data and. You know or you know studying history or anthropology. Um, which was Picard's you know fascination right? So it's it's our archeology so excuse me I said anthropology which he kind of did that too. Um, but it's like okay, let's get back to quality of consumption.
56:10.11
talknerdy
Yeah.
56:25.42
talknerdy
Write.
56:27.90
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Because to me at the end of the day. That's what's going to move us as a society towards that ultimate vision where there won't be any need to work for so you know sustenance It'll be provided because we would have created that opportunity in our endeavors.
56:40.35
talknerdy
Absolutely yeah, it oh I so agree I'm gonna be that jerk who like you know how when you watch a movie or a Tv show where you're like what a perfect ending and then they're like nope we're gonna add more I'm doing that right now like that was such a button I could have been like. Thank you here here? Goodbye but.
56:53.99
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, love it. Love it. Ah. Ah, Sure, let's do it? Yeah yeah.
57:00.70
talknerdy
But you know as we round out the hour. There's still a pressing question or 2 that are in me so I'm like let's keep going I'm going to steal you for a couple more minutes because I want to kind of circle back to covid and how you know these? um these insights play out with regards to how. A normal person from you know let's say east l a to somebody who's living in Chicago to somebody who's living in rural iowa to somebody who's living you know, ah across the globe. How are they to grapple with all of the rhetoric that they're seeing.
57:28.14
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Have.
57:36.49
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, 1
57:38.63
talknerdy
How are they to know the difference between truth and fiction between valuable information and misinformation because again, it's easy to say oh they're in an echo chamber. Oh they're all just like Fox News consuming like anti-vax qanon conspiracy theorists. That's like that's the heart of who's not getting vaccinated but that's. Not true. There are a lot of people who aren't getting vaccinated because of distrust within their communities who aren't getting vaccinated because they don't have access or they don't understand the process or the protocol or you know there's so many different reasons. So how do we contend with this as a nation.
58:07.46
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, agreed agreed and you know the way forward. Um, and this is not self-serving in any way but it I think is to rely we're dealing with a health care issue right. Um, and so my go to in this regard is leverage your Healthcare workers right? leverage your physicians your clinicians that are in your communities that are experiencing locally the same as what you're Experiencing. Um.
58:33.37
talknerdy
Yes, yes.
58:42.22
talknerdy
Right? because they come from where you come from and they speak the same language and they you know eat at the same restaurants and went to the same schools.
58:44.60
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And that's it. That's it exactly exactly and and those in the same way you spoke to the statistics earlier about you know what was impactful at changing the minds of those who were on the fence about getting the vaccine. Um. You know, do similarly a seeking of information on things related to Covid you know and your clinicians will tell you? Yeah,, there's data that shows Covid can cause erectile dysfunction. Can cause you know, um, global inflammation of the brain and so you know and in various areas that we have yet to fully understand the long-term implications of right? Um, and and really leverage the expertise that we have in those clinicians you know. Because because one it's their job and hopefully their passion to share this information but to do so Accurately. Um, and yeah I think if we look there. We'll find an opportunity for us to kind of rest easier right? As a general population.
59:41.76
talknerdy
Absolutely. Ah.
59:50.77
talknerdy
Yeah.
59:54.80
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Because then we can tune out some of the rhetoric that we hear that we either are distrustful of on one side or the other.
01:00:00.54
talknerdy
But I think health care providers. Also it's it's imperative that they be aware of what that rhetoric is so that they can speak to it. You know I think to know you know that Rogan and and Malone are saying.
01:00:07.66
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Oh absolutely.
01:00:15.90
talknerdy
You know your risk of Myocarditis is insane from the vaccine. Don't get vaccinated. It's important for a health care provider to know that that's what's being said so they can then come back and say well let's talk about your risk of Myoccarditis from Covid Let's talk. Let's actually compare these things apples to apples I've been reading the literature and this is what I'm seeing um and and.
01:00:20.99
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Here. Um, yes. Yes.
01:00:33.88
talknerdy
It's important you know to to not just kind of paint every patient with a broad brush. But to say what are your concerns. What speaks to you Personally let's see if we can grapple with that together. Yeah.
01:00:44.25
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it. That's it. It. It's you know it's personal right? The decision to get vaated or not is personal. The decision to protect your friends and family are not with a vaccineating a vaccine protocol. That's personal. The the note to show up to work. Right? Um, and wear masks that's personal um and getting at that level of personal relationship with your clinicians should be the go to for for if you have access now granted we still got to struggle with those who don't have access in their communities right? um.
01:01:13.51
talknerdy
And right and I was going to say like I literally just picked up my phone to check the time and I had to pop you know the notifications that you pop up on the front of your http://iphonebuzzfeednewsa Cdc report found that people of color are less likely to get lifesaving covid nineteen treatments like monoclonal antibodies.
01:01:19.10
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
1
01:01:30.86
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
So true. Yes, right, right.
01:01:31.92
talknerdy
And of course we know this this doesn't surprise me at all. But it's it's just reinforcing the problem that we're talking about even if everything is you know, even if somebody wants it even if they're trying by virtue of the color of their skin by virtue of the neighborhood they grew up in by virtue Of. You know generations of history of systemic oppression in this country I'm not going to get that you know they're not going to get the treatment that they need like what it's It's Infuriating. Um.
01:01:57.27
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That's it's so True. It's so true. Yeah yeah I mean access to it right? Availability and oftentimes Sometimes it's a cash pay right? It's not covered by insurance in in previous times. So. You know there's definitely that divide I mean even you know who's vulnerable at ah, you know as we looked at the pandemic we know, black and brown communities were adversely affected. Um, but it could some of the factors that we didn't speak to upfront were things like car pulling right.
01:02:21.70
talknerdy
Absolutely.
01:02:29.81
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, black and brown workers are more likely to carpool than their white counterparts and guess what as your or exactly exactly and so even if you had protections at work to help prevent Covid spread at work right.
01:02:34.28
talknerdy
Or use public transportation Exactly yeah.
01:02:46.42
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
The moment you left that job and got in the car or the carpool with your colleagues Guess what your risk went back up and so it was the socioeconomic impact of your circumstance. Um, that led to the increased risk. So even access to child care became important as a factor. As to whether or not individuals contracted Covid or not taking care of their sick children or the ability to come to work I mean it was complex in terms of the factors that have been examined and have been shown to play a role. Yeah.
01:03:18.36
talknerdy
Oh we could probably yeah we could. We could grab a whiteboard right now and brainstorm 9000 different reasons that you know and but these are mediating and moderating variables because the truth of the matter is that black and brown people in America simply.
01:03:27.34
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes.
01:03:38.41
talknerdy
Don't have as much ah available to them. They're simply living in more crowded quarters. They don't have the opportunities to take a sick day from work. They don't have and that's really what it's about all of these different factors. Come back to the fact that our nation was built on privilege for a specific class.
01:03:40.24
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes. I.
01:03:56.48
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Yes.
01:03:58.60
talknerdy
And and we continue to not just struggle with that. But it continues to be reinforced and that's the real gross thing there are literally people across our country who refuse to admit that that's even the case and now we're seeing legislation across the south that's being presented and even in some cases past.
01:04:03.50
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Oh no, yes. E.
01:04:17.27
talknerdy
To protect the emotions of white students so that they don't have to think about things that make them uncomfortable like this is ah I know.
01:04:19.58
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, yeah, it's it's remarkable right? and and to your point right? The fact that we still have some that refuse to you know, even.
01:04:35.64
talknerdy
E.
01:04:36.35
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Ah, acknowledge that these biases exist is troubling right? Um, we we sure as heck didn't see that play out in Ronberry's future. Um, in right and and perhaps you know and I'm being a little jocular here but you know the.
01:04:47.19
talknerdy
That's true. Yeah.
01:04:55.61
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
People always kind of ponder you know when will we see the day that you know these race biases cease to exist and I said well we know how we can speed that up just look at Independence day right? We get attacked by Aliens and everybody you know is fighting for existence of the planet. Ah, we'll see you know our all of our ah bias turn towards that invading race. Um, and outside of that where's the bridge. Ah, how do we? How do we recognize that we are the same people that you know we we come from the same dirt we breathe the same air.
01:05:21.50
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:05:34.82
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, and as we do as our neighbor does Well we will do well that is the communal you know philosophy that I think we're hearing less and less of unfortunately from both sides because it's one of protecting the ideals. Of the you know of each side without that open mindedness to share of what the blended future looks like together.
01:06:02.40
talknerdy
Here here. So you know it as we're sort of winding down the hour Anthony I always ask my guests the same 2 questions and I'm always really curious based on you know their area of expertise where they're coming from. Um, how they're going to answer those 2 questions so I was hoping I could now pose to you the 2 really big picture questions that always close out talk nerdy you ready for them all right? So when you think about the future in whatever context is relevant to you.
01:06:21.25
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
The home.
01:06:28.39
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
I'm ready hit me.
01:06:35.99
talknerdy
Right now in this moment so this could be you know, Occupationally it could be global health they could be you know this very rottenberry future that we've been discussing it could even be cosmic. Um, whatever context makes sense to you.
01:06:44.52
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um.
01:06:50.50
talknerdy
Number 1 What is the thing that's been keeping you up the most at night the thing that you're really pondering and worried about maybe sometimes you're finding yourself being pessimistic or even cynical about you know the thing you're legitimate So like you have legitimate concerns about and then to end on a more positive note on the flip side of that. Where are you finding genuine optimism where are you? you know, authentically really um, finding hope and and what are you looking forward to.
01:07:18.39
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Um, thing that keeps me up at night is disregard for human life I'm seeing more and more examples particularly here in Chicago um of disregard for human life.
01:07:27.52
talknerdy
E m.
01:07:37.50
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
From its core of you know our how often we see homicides and from its you know, not as in your face disregard um of how people are treated right and dehumanized. I Think that we're moving in the wrong direction there and that keeps me up at night from a societal standpoint but on a personal from a personal stance. It keeps me Up. You know, imagining what future My my kids are gonna have right? can they they can't go down street you know to the park.
01:08:09.36
talknerdy
So yeah.
01:08:14.85
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
And play I live you know in Chicago proper and that's not a reality for them. It's not safe right? and and so it's not getting better. It's getting worse and that is you know troubling. Um and we see that a little bit on the macro level as well.
01:08:19.75
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:08:31.71
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:08:34.37
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
What the positive um thoughts I have around us as a society is this resurgence of aspirational. Um, togetherness right? exploration like we we talk about? um. You know, Spacex and all the thoughts that we are going to further our reach into the cosmos um to me that engenders by nature of that lofty aspiration. A togetherness. Recognizing we can't individually make it there. Not just as a nation but you know it's going to take a global effort to reach a you know aspiration of space exploration to reach the aspiration of 0 carbon emission globally um, and.
01:09:18.17
talknerdy
E.
01:09:30.52
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
That to me at the same time I see this escalation of disregard for human life I also see a swell of um, the populist focused in on you know what? the future creating that vision of the future. In a day-to-day achievement fashion and for me that definitely I'm an optimist. The glasses always half full in my life and to me that we have the opportunity to encapsulate that optimism.
01:09:57.28
talknerdy
Nice, nice.
01:10:04.85
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
With what we're accomplishing now and what we're seeking to accomplish in the next twenty years
01:10:07.72
talknerdy
Ah, here here? Well gosh Anthony. Thank you so much for spending the time with this today before before we say goodbye I'm wondering for the people who are listening where can they learn more about the work that you do maybe you know is. Social media or websites or you know how can they sort of become more exposed to to the incredible work that you're doing.
01:10:31.75
Dr_ Anthony N Harris
Sure so you can check me out on Twitter Dr. Anthony Harris at Dr Anthony Harris you can check me out also with the work we're doing at h fitt which is our branded services from wearable technology for ergonomics to preventative health at hfithealth dot com. Love to hear from you and love to collaborate or if we sit and just ponder you know theories of astrophysics I'd love that too. So this has been awesome. Ah so happy you've had me on the show here.
01:10:57.31
talknerdy
Yes, Ah, it's been such such a joy such a pleasure. Thank you So so much for being here, and everybody listening, Thank you for coming back week after week. Um, really looking forward to the next time we all get together to talk nerdy.
