Coronavirus Vaccine w/ Brendan Borrell
In this episode of Talk Nerdy, Cara is joined by Dr. Brendan Borrell, author of “The First Shots: The Epic Rivalries and Heroic Science Behind the Race to the Coronavirus Vaccine.” They highlight the incredible global achievement of developing multiple mRNA vaccines effective against a deadly new virus. Also discussed: how America’s audacious goals were accomplished against a political backdrop of utter ineptitude and failed leadership. Follow Brendan: @bborrell.
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00:00.00
talknerdy
And and yes we are rolling I love it. Well Brendan thank you so much for joining me today. So your um book actually came across my desk quite a bit ago when it was in Galley form and I was like yes yes yes, we have to do this.
00:04.91
Brendan
Hi I'm happy to be here.
00:16.21
talknerdy
Um, when did the actual finished copy hit the shelves gotcha so things have changed since October but also so much has stayed this a so I am thrilled to be talking to you today about your your.
00:18.23
Brendan
October Twenty sixth of last year so what
00:34.34
talknerdy
First book. How exciting congratulations. Um, the first shots. The epic rivalries and heroic science behind the race to the coronavirus vaccine. What obviously an important topic and something that I feel like all of us are armchair experts about but none of us are actually deep dive experts about. So thank you. Taking the time to do all of the legwork to really dig deep into how these vaccines over you know, historically how the how the components of these vaccines have been developed but also how we were able to get this to quote market as quickly as we did.
01:08.31
Brendan
Ah, yeah, thanks and I know yeah the science has changed so fast I I hardly can keep up with myself. Um, but it is such a ah amazing period for for vaccine science and virology. So it's It's very exciting.
01:22.69
talknerdy
Absolutely and I have to say just right off the bat. Um, looking at the ah blurbs on your book. These are heavy like these are authors who I've looked up to for ages Deborah Blum damn fagan both of whom got Pulitzer prizes for They're incredible science writing and who really set the standard for a lot of um science writing so are these people that you have just sort of like known in your science journalism circle and um, gosh what did it feel like to to hear that they read the book and were like hell yes, this is this is important work.
01:55.94
Brendan
Ah, yeah, I'm very grateful to them I mean and I mean I had met them through the the science writing circles and I think they deserve it an extra credit because they had you know I think we gave them like ten days to
02:08.78
talknerdy
E.
02:11.33
Brendan
Get the book and turn around a blurb. You know I was on a crash publication schedule I had competing books I was faced with and I had a deadline that kept getting shorter and shorter. So so yeah I didnt know they are both amazing writers and I think what's important is they've they've been huge. You know.
02:21.30
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
02:30.43
Brendan
Influences in the science writing community. They're both professors at mit and and whyu and they're just really swell people. So.
02:30.59
talknerdy
Absolutely.
02:36.68
talknerdy
Um I love it. Yeah, it's it's absolutely true and so it's it's it's cool to hear that there has been this sort of support around. Ah what I think is just such an important book and and of course you yourself. You're not coming from to science journalism naively like you've been, you've been doing science writing for some time but you're a trained scientist first and then you made that transition into science journalism.
03:02.79
Brendan
Ah, that's right I was ah you know I got my so I always liked writing I mean growing up I wrote short stories and all this. But I also liked catching snakes and lizards and that was what first attracted me when I went to college and started doing. Like working for professors doing field research in Panama and Costa Rica and then I got to do my own my own research for my ph d and it was just like I just love the adventure part of it I love the tropical forest and um, you know, but at a certain point I would like you know what? I think. I'm a writer at heart. Not a scientist.
03:41.18
talknerdy
Um, and so did you find that early on after you finished your Ph D that you were um I don't know more interested in doing ah kind of the natural history ecology work or were you like I'm just going to be super open like how did you find your niche and do you even really have a beat.
03:58.42
Brendan
You know I in in the early days. So the way I actually made the leap was my last year my ph d at berkeley I applied for this fellowship called the the Aaas Mass Media Fellowship a lot of people have done that.
04:14.98
talknerdy
E.
04:17.20
Brendan
Um, you know and ah basically they put me in the newsroom at the Portland Oregonian that summer and I just was you know thrown into every type of science. Ah, you know I'd studied bees but now I was you know writing about ah you know space and physics and chemistry. And when I got out of that I started to I was immediately a freelancer I was I had no income and I just started pitching and of course you know getting into you know my leg in the door at science oriented publications was key I was like writing for like the new section in nature I became a correspondent at this. Biology magazine called the scientist and that was great because they had this budget to fly me all kinds of places my editor there like sent me to Australia ah to report on cane toads invasive cane toads there I think I went to yeah I went to like.
04:59.32
talknerdy
Cool.
05:10.92
Brendan
Spainin and Canada it was just like a blast to be this globeri reporter and so it kind of had that adventure element that I you know enjoyed as ah, you know as a graduate student. Um, but I think I always you know there was ah such a wide range of writers who. Always admired. It wasn't just science journalists it was just kind of like this you know, classic long form journalism um magazine writers and outside magazines for instance where I'm you know a correspondent. It was always a place I love John Kraauer who wrote into the wild and.
05:35.22
talknerdy
Right.
05:45.91
Brendan
Ah, Sebastian Younger so I always like you know I was like yeah I want to do kind of these general stories. You know whether they're sort of crime oriented or um adventure oriented like that was always sort of a big part of it and and writing writing profiles. So it was never you know that was always the goal.
06:02.68
talknerdy
Yeah, and that kind of work really requires almost um, it's sort of like a multidisciplinary approach because it's not just about the science. There's also a strong kind of historical.
06:05.49
Brendan
Yeah.
06:15.27
talknerdy
Element to it like you have to dig deep in order to to tell stories that have a past a present and a future and that really is the case, especially when we talk about you know the um, the landscape of of vaccines specific for coronavirus Now. They have a long. History behind them.
06:34.87
Brendan
Ah, that's right and most of that history was obscure to me when I began this project I had not written that much about vaccines. You know I knew a little bit and ah you know like learning just the vocabulary of antibodies and and this whole.
06:40.29
talknerdy
You.
06:54.30
Brendan
Deep history of how we came to the Mrna vaccines and um, you know, but at the end of the day I also you know I needed to learn that but I also wanted to make this thing a page turner and so I try to go somewhat light on the history I sort of put it in there and ah but I I felt like. There was so much action taking place in the year Twenty Twenty moving towards the vaccine I wanted to just keep things moving and so that that was a little bit of a departure for me. Yeah.
07:19.37
talknerdy
Yeah, it's true like when you look at how you've actually laid out the book. It really is a very kind of 24 esque approach. It's like this is what's going on right now. Um, and and there of course we can't decouple the science.
07:29.67
Brendan
Ah.
07:36.57
talknerdy
From the politics We can't decouple the science from the ah the social pressures and from you know the the like I said the geopolitics of what was going on at that time. How did you I Guess Grapple With. What to include what not to include how to tell the story in a way that kind of encapsulated or I don't know from your perspective really was um, highlighting what happened because there's so many different ways to approach what happened Aka? What is happening.
08:07.63
Brendan
Yeah I mean I wanted to the vaccine is kind of the central character of the book if you will um and the idea was what did the vaccine mean over the course of 2020 we had society had shut down. It became this.
08:08.26
talknerdy
Currently.
08:26.78
Brendan
First off it was the scientific goal this achievement that I needed to highlight and sort of explain how it came to be and who played a role in that and and for me the starring characters were at the national institutes of health this guy Barney Graham amazing scientist who sort of was one of the the pioneers behind the vaccine. So like i. Ah begin the book kind of telling his story and then as we shift into say op operation warp speed Trump's program to accelerate vaccine development these this thing starts to become take on on a life of its own as as a political. Trophy and football for the administration and so we shift from the science to the politics and then of course there is the business side of things and and you know you have this this race with companies like Pfizer and Moderna um, coming into play and so I tried to tell you know. Each side of these is these perspectives. Um, and so so that was a huge challenge but but that was my goal. So.
09:27.29
talknerdy
Absolutely so I'm curious. Maybe we can take a step back and we can talk a little bit about um, ah sort of like vaccines as we've long know them versus um Mrna vaccines. What's different about them. How do they work differently and why. Was sort of the utilization of an um mrna vaccine so instrumental in sort of truncating the timeline.
09:52.60
Brendan
Well, the basic idea for a vaccine is right? You're giving the body a sort of a dummy ah model for it to sort of hone its Immune defenses on Um, and historically you know we know we we know the.
10:10.97
talknerdy
E.
10:11.20
Brendan
Speaking about history as you brought up the the first vaccine ever was this smallpox vaccine and you know smallpox was this plague that periodically affected humanity over thousands of years there's historic records of it from all over the world. Um, and I think it killed about 1 in 3 people other people end up disfigured it. It was just this awful thing and in the late seventeen hundreds. Ah, people started to you know there were there were several several people who you might say were were the inventors of vaccination. Um, one of 1 of the people I dug into is Benjamin Jesty untrained um just a local guy who was very concerned about smallpox and he heard these rumors that milkmaids who got these little pustules on their finger from something called cowpox would end up being protected from smallpox. I mean we know now these are different viruses but they're really similar so 1 of them is very mild. One of them is very serious and once he discovered that if you are infected by cowpox you're protected from smallpox. He started you know, basically he he inoculated his family um by going and poking a needle on a cow udder. And then it's sticking it into his wife and his sons and they ended up being protected and that was kind of like the origin of vaccination it it eventually spread and we started to come come up with more like newer strategies and and one of the things that we we did was was ah. Rather than using a whole virus. You could start to use pieces of the virus with the genetic engineering revolution. It became manufacturing just say you know a toxin or a component of the virus is outer capsule um manufacturing that in a bacteria growing it up in yeast. Um, this is the the magic of biological engineering. Um, but you know and I this is a long winded explanation to get us to Mr and a but like all this stuff was like messy you know making vaccines. Yeah making.
12:03.21
talknerdy
Right.
12:12.29
talknerdy
Oh for sure. Yeah I mean like you said the earliest vaccines were there. It's literally called a vaccine because vodka cow is they came from cowpo and they were literally having to synthesize in the early days this stuff directly from. Animals right? like a lot of early vaccines where they would have to utilize secretions or parts of animals in order to make these things.
12:40.36
Brendan
Yeah, no I dug up like a picture of like a cow hide that you know the farm the manufacturer wyeth you know would would basically people would take these cow hides and they would scrape the surface of it to get the the cowpox off.
12:55.16
talknerdy
Oh God yeah.
12:56.96
Brendan
And then you make it a vaccine know that but you know even with genetic engineering. It was just like it was just kind of like this tricky process like trying to purify a complicated structure from you know and separate it from the cell where you're growing it up in um and so the the.
13:13.57
talknerdy
Mm.
13:16.73
Brendan
You know the the bottom line was it took years to hone the process for any particular vaccine and actually get the manufacturing up to snuff. The Fda had very strict regulations on how pure things had to be um. And so the beauty of and Mrna of a gene-based vaccine was the idea that it was just plug and play that once you sort of know how to make 1 vaccine you kind of can figure out how to manufacture the others and so it could speed the process up immeasurably and so this was a dream starting in the 90 s and it took. 30 years to come to fruition and here we are the beginning of 2020 and you know Moderna has kind of kind of figured out the approach they're going to use.
14:00.89
talknerdy
Okay, so some of the science was was there and had been developed for the past couple of decades but there was in existence. No and ah ah Mrna vaccine prior to the the covid pandemic or the coronavirus pandemic. Yeah.
14:16.87
Brendan
There'd never been ah been an MRna vaccine approved by the Fda there'd been kind of experimental vaccines Moderna tested a zika vaccine and a phase 1 trial? um they had they had a pandemic flu a bird flu vaccine.
14:20.48
talknerdy
Oka.
14:32.33
Brendan
You know and the thing was I mean there these trials were not very successful. Moderno would always say oh we're doing great. Um, but outside scientists told me like they you know there was nothing very impressive about it. Um, they were yeah.
14:42.12
talknerdy
Right? I mean the fact that they had done some experiments but nothing had gotten past phase one doesn't really bode. Well for the time pressure of Covid like it feels like even though yes on paper Mrna vaccines were you know a game changer and this was going to open the door. There still took a bit of a leap of faith. To to fund this to really kind of put our nickel down on it.
15:07.22
Brendan
That's right I mean it it You know one of the challenges was you know you need to deliver high enough dose to the body that it's going to sort of produce that Immune response but it can't be too reactogenic as they say it can't give people. You know lay people out for too many days. We know that these and MRna vaccines. Anybody who's gotten one are are can be pretty intense. Um, and yeah.
15:26.45
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, they're definitely different than the vaccines I've had in the past you you? yeah I was laid out for many days, especially on the second dose in the booster.
15:35.68
Brendan
Ah, yeah, and I mean and we know that for instance, you know there's this company over and in Europe cuva which has actually been the um rna business longer than Moderna they have kind of a different strategy to deliver the mrna to cells and their face through trial was a failure. Um, so like and you know I remember experiencing the the clinical you know we all sort of remember November December of 2020 when the vaccines you know came through 90% efficacy and it felt like What's everybody talking about vaccines are easy but you look over you know months later cure that comes out and their their trial is a failure. Um, so yeah, it was. It was a big leap. Um, for you know people to back and the mrna and of course that's why operation or speed had multiple. That's multi you know a broad portfolio with some of the more traditional technologies as well.
16:29.72
talknerdy
Right? And for example J and J when they came out with their vaccine that was not an um Mrna vaccine.
16:36.17
Brendan
They had the virus factor vaccine. So it's kind of like ah ah, a brother of the and Mrna because yes, there's a virus involved but it's you know it's a gene-based vaccine, you're taking a gene from the coronavirus you're putting it into harmless virus and it's basically delivering it to the body cells.
16:41.22
talknerdy
Mm Ok so.
16:55.91
Brendan
Um, so there's you know that's that's kind of the the origin of these these ideas and and 1 of ah 1 of the the things ideas with the virus-based vaccine is it can also generate a little bit of an immune response just by nature of it actually being a virus. Um.
17:11.81
talknerdy
So for for most of us who had taken a lot of vaccines previous to you know Covid like when when sort of the game change. Ah most of us take a flu shot every year many of us had our our standard course of like and mmr or dtap or tdap or whatever you want to call it.
17:13.88
Brendan
And yeah.
17:30.67
talknerdy
Um, tetanus Ditheria Pertussis Many of us have had vaccines before we travel or we've needed to get. Ah yeah, a tetanus vaccine. For example, if we've had some sort of exposure. Um, ah these all run the gamut or are most modern vaccines viral Vector vaccines.
17:47.80
Brendan
No, the viral vector vaccine is relatively new as well. the the J And J platform yeah had had not really been. You know it'd been in testing there'd been an ebola vaccine that got approved like in the summer of 2020 um so
17:50.45
talknerdy
Okay.
18:00.70
talknerdy
Right? Yeah I remember covering that but it really did get sort of swallowed up by all the Covid news.
18:06.65
Brendan
I. Yeah, yeah, and I think merk had had the first viral Vector Vaccine. It was kind of a similar thing and um, but I mean yeah, those were relatively new technologies and we didn't know how well that worked either.
18:23.33
talknerdy
6 e.
18:26.80
Brendan
Um, going back to what you're saying about the traditional vaccines that we usually get most of them are kind of it's a weakened virus. So it's actually the virus that causes disease but it's been like ah somehow weakened by raising it in the wrong organism like in chicken eggs. Um.
18:38.75
talknerdy
Oh so that's when we see like live attenuated or like a heat killed virus or something like that. It's the actual virus itself is in the vaccine.
18:49.40
Brendan
That's right and then the polio vaccine The you know the inactivated one. That's like you know a Douston from Formallin from aldehyde to completely kill it. Um, and then I think that some of the bacterial vaccines and some of the other virus vaccines. They are just. Ah, you know a protein based you know they just take a little piece of the vaccine or the toxin. Um that the bacteria producing and give that to your body. Yeah.
19:14.65
talknerdy
Right? Okay, all right? So yeah, definitely a different approach to to hopefully get to the same place but like you said, what? what is the thing about I guess in summary about an Mrna vaccine. That made it so promising and that ultimately ended up being the reason that they sort of quote won the race.
19:37.50
Brendan
Um, well I mean what I think the the best comparison here is with Nova vaccine which is this other vaccine manufacturer that makes protein-based vaccines and this is kind of the traditional genetic engineering technology I talked about um and.
19:51.10
talknerdy
You.
19:54.88
Brendan
That company has still not delivered a vaccine to the us because it was so challenging to kind of purify the um, the spike proteins all all the vaccines that for the coronavirus that we have here in the Us are so you know they use the coronavirus spike as the antigen as this. That's going to stimulate the Immune system Novafax delivers the actual spike to the body. It raises that spike up in a cell culture made out of you know the ovaries from caterpillars. Come yeah.
20:22.61
talknerdy
Oh my God Seriously so they have like caterpillar farms that they have to run.
20:29.30
Brendan
Well, it's the descendants. So I mean they've they've had. We've had these cell cultures in laboratories but for ages and ages. Ah, that's it. No I mean that's that's a fascinating story I actually dug into kind of like the early days when the researchers did have caterpillar farms.
20:32.48
talknerdy
Okay.
20:46.11
Brendan
And their laboratories and they would kind of have that sort of weird stink of you know insects? Ah yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:51.41
talknerdy
Oh yeah, you know that caterpillar ovary smell that we're also what a bizarre yeah that oh my God I I can't even put into words you're right talking about how tedious this was back in the day. But. But now that there are cell lines. It's a little.. It's a little cleaner.
21:10.83
Brendan
ah ah yeah actually I just got to talk about this because I can't help myself. But I mean that whole that whole process is I mean these these researchers back in the 80 s they had caterpillars that are growing up in these warm rooms because you keep them a little bit warm and they would infect them with a virus that was.
21:24.86
talknerdy
Okay.
21:30.30
Brendan
To the caterpillar. Um and ah this virus is called a baculo virus and it it causes the caterpillars basically to produce immense amounts of this like protein that protects the virus it sort of crystallizes around the virus so that when the caterpillar dies.
21:32.47
talknerdy
Aha. Yes.
21:49.86
Brendan
Um, another caterpillar might you know it can protect the virus for years until another caterpillar comes along and munches on it and this is very long the like these caterpillars get like super infected and like gooey and they're like oozing white goo and so these researchers saw that and these cattlellars became machines for making viruses.
21:55.40
talknerdy
And.
22:09.79
Brendan
And so the receipt researchers found ways to modify you know, genetically engineer the Bacula virus and say rather than making it and and use it to make drugs or use it to make a vaccine. Um.
22:21.19
talknerdy
Oh so it wasn't about the the human disease Specifically it was more about the carrier like the the the mechanism not so much about the actual disease does that make sense question Ia Okay, good.
22:33.42
Brendan
That's right that the the cat you're talking about. So I mean there's the caterpillar disease and then ultimately it became like let's use the Bacula virus to make a vaccine for another virus in humans wrote up andul. Yeah right? um.
22:41.98
talknerdy
Exactly because we don't need to inoculate ourselves against a caterpillar just he is right.
22:51.24
Brendan
But ah, but yeah I mean so I mean the whole thing was this is this. This was this amazing discovery in the 80 s and it's been. It's been used in really important flu vaccine. Um and a Hpv vaccine and so on so it was this promising platform. But here we are 2 years into the pandemic and those protein-based vaccines have not delivered.
22:58.23
talknerdy
Okay.
23:10.61
Brendan
Um, and the M Mrna vaccines by you know Wow Um, and part of it was because you M Mrna you're it's manufactured through a you know chemical synthesis and it's fast and it can be manufactured in.
23:21.45
talknerdy
Right? So it's fast.
23:28.37
Brendan
Clean conditions as opposed to growing caterpillar ovary cells then you have to separate the cat of you know all the bits and pieces of the cell from the vaccine Antigen which is which is messy. Um.
23:37.83
talknerdy
Right? right? So it's almost like ah ah I I don't want to use the word synthetic because that's not quite correct, but it's almost like a purified way to to develop these. It's cleaner and faster.
23:54.47
Brendan
That's right, yeah, it's kind of once the manufacturing is down then it's very very fast. The challenge is like what do you use? What do you actually want to make with your and Mrna and that's kind of the other part of the story I mentioned Barney Graham and his.
23:55.59
talknerdy
Okay.
24:09.80
Brendan
Sort of early work on specifically coronaviruses and recognizing ways to make that coronavirus spike which is kind of like this wiggly thing that changes shape and um is kind of difficult to develop antibodies against he he found a way to sort of make it stiff him at him and his collaborators.
24:22.73
talknerdy
E.
24:29.16
Brendan
Um, and that becomes the the key ingredient in the Mrna vaccine.
24:32.41
talknerdy
Ok, so it's it's it's not just that mrna vaccination as a technology had been in the works for some time even though it hadn't really been perfected but it's also that corona viruses as a category as a group of viruses. Had been investigated they because of course coronaviruses history. This wasn't the first corona virus that we as human beings have encountered. Um, so so researchers had already been trying to understand the. Structure the function. The mechanisms for some time we weren't coming at this completely naively. Okay, okay.
25:10.50
Brendan
We were very lucky that it was a coronavirus and not some other virus right? we had. We had the experience of sars and mers which was the middle eastern respiratory set syndrome and and that sort of kicked into action. You know a small group of laboratories. This was. You know, emerging infectious disease were not sort of the the thing you go for if you're a big pharmaceutical company. This was for the nerdy virologists and the government and at University Laboratories we'd be like ah I'm going to try to make a coronavirus vaccine. Maybe it'll be useful. So yeah.
25:45.31
talknerdy
Right? Like this is for the people who are really good at thinking long term. Not so much the people who are thinking about what is the ah roi next year.
25:48.79
Brendan
Is where yeah exactly.
25:57.28
talknerdy
Ah, and so okay, so sars mers like you said and even some forms of the common cold right? are are diseases that are caused by coronaviruses like we've known that for some time but then covid nineteen or sars cove 2 The novel. Was a novel corona virus and a new version of a corona virus that we had never been exposed to.
26:19.50
Brendan
Yeah I mean that's that's the thing is most you know as as devastating as it as it was to be infected by Mers I mean that only you know had had a very small impact before it kind of burned itself out same with Sars Nobody expected this thing to. Bred so rapidly to be so infectious and to be so deadly. Um, but yeah humans were naive to this Coronavirus. We had no defenses to it and that's why ultimately making a vaccine was going to be critical.
26:48.88
talknerdy
Okay, so tell me a little bit about what was happening behind the scenes in operation warp speed you know for a lot of us I Think as the quote pandemic fatigue set In. And as we had been in lockdown for so long we had been isolating and distancing for so long and we were starting to kind of lose lose a little bit of hope I think some people sort of obsessively read about these things and kept an eye on the news and some people myself included to some extent. Really said I'm going to you know, turn off the notifications on my phone I'm going to detach from the news because I don't think it's very good for my mental health and I think in that process a lot of us missed out on the stories of what was happening behind the scenes. Also not Sure. There was a lot of clarity at the time for many of us.
27:36.20
Brendan
My heart.
27:40.27
talknerdy
So you know you've really dug deep into into the story of how the politics and the pressures ah combined with the scientific landscape got us to where we are today? Um, maybe you can give us a little quick and dirty on that.
27:54.13
Brendan
Ah, yeah I mean I was in the same position as everybody else in April and may of Twenty Twenty the announcement of operation warp speed from the Trump administration led to naturally eye rolls and in fact I mean many so scientists outside scientists who were. Concerned about the promises that the administration was making they thought I mean no I mean this was a president that had been touting hydroxychloroquine for the treatment of covid and it was just whoa. This is more smoking mirrors and.
28:14.57
talknerdy
Oh for sure they didn't seem based in reality did they.
28:22.79
talknerdy
Me.
28:28.47
talknerdy
This was a president by the way who wondered out loud whether shining a light inside the body would be something that might ah kill the kill the virus like this was a president that didn't not inspire a lot of confidence in any of his scientific understanding.
28:30.79
Brendan
Yeah.
28:42.67
Brendan
Absolutely not and I I think what's incredible about warp speed and what I discovered as I was working on this book was you know I mean how did how did it happen who you know who was pushing for it. Um, and why it was not as ridiculous as it sounded and so you know, kind of the origin story of operation warp speed is um, 2 characters who are are people I really like that better are featured in the book. One of them is Bob Ka who's like a former spy. Bio weapons expert who is pretty much vilified in the media as being a failure you know dropping the ball he was and the Trump administration was like on the verge of firing him all the time. Um, and then the second person is Peter Marks who is still the head of the office that oversees vaccine approval and these 2 guys are like nerds. Um, who got together during ah some phone calls in early April and Peter Bobcat looks like you know we got to do something about this. You know there's the country's going the wrong direction and Peter Marks is like yeah I've been talking to vaccine makers and everybody you know Johnson and johnson is talking like. 2021 going into clinical trials you know which was like more than a year away. Um Moderna didn't have that you know enough funding to do what it needed to do um and within the administration there were like questions about how much to to spend on.
30:00.61
talknerdy
E.
30:13.39
Brendan
You know vaccine development and so on I think a meet you know there was a meeting where Trump's like vaccine makers. Don't they don't need money. They just need time blah blah blah um, but you know Marx and catholic got together and they came up with the blueprints for warp speed and ultimately I mean this is just.
30:20.15
talknerdy
Yeah.
30:31.41
Brendan
But I mean I talk about the the wild politics of this is this idea gets taken by the health secretary who is also kind of a not a very ah, very well- liked figure to Jared Kushner president's son-inlaw secretary of everything this guy who's meddling in the pandemic response and has a.
30:45.96
talknerdy
So.
30:51.30
Brendan
Bad reputation for various reasons but Kushner saw the logic in it and what he had was power and that is what you needed to get stuff done and so Kushner gave operation warp speed the backing to get ah, get sort of the endorsement of the Trump administration.
30:51.54
talknerdy
Yeah.
31:09.87
Brendan
And so then this program you know did 2 things number 1 the idea was let's you know invest you know millions of dollars you know funding the scale up and manufacturing of vaccines before they prove effective and number 2 let's involve the national institutes of health. To work hand in hand with these vaccine makers including Moderno which had never done a phase 3 trial nova vax etc, etc and get them to plan trials that are more likely to be successful. Um, and I talk a lot about how that process worked in the book.
31:44.21
talknerdy
It's so complicated I mean thinking about the powers that be and those who had their sort of hands on the purse strings. How did? How did this big sort of Unwieldy behemoth. Go about deciding who to fund who not to fund where to put there. They're backing where not to put their backing like did did the right players end up in the right positions for this to all work out or could ah have gone a completely different way.
32:11.45
Brendan
Ah, no, that's really good question because it it was it was kind of funny because I was I was following this when when it was happening because I wasn't quite on the inside in in early may and it was like we we get these announcements like there are. You know 15 vaccine companies in operation works date and then the next day it was like there are 6 and it was like what what is going on here. Well what? what was happening it turned out as this guy Peter March from the Fda starts this plan he has this plan. He's like a very rational. Ah you know he he wanted to create just this.
32:32.82
talknerdy
Yeah, ah yeah.
32:47.77
Brendan
Very clear competition to get all of the vaccine makers because at that time there were like 200 companies that announced they had vaccine plans 200 like groups. Some of them were more or less realistic. But anyways there was there was a big list of them.
32:54.99
talknerdy
A wow.
33:03.37
Brendan
And Marx was like let's get everybody. Let's not just focus on Sanofi and merk. Let's get the small guys and give them a chance. Um, you know, maybe a dark horse is going to be able to pull this off and so he had this whole sort of scheme laid out for how to sort of evaluate these vaccines head-to-head well lo and behold like. Couple days. Ah you know after Marx is sort of announced as being one of the the leaders of inside warppe. Um, this guy Monsef Slowwi who is this veteran from a big vaccine maker called Glaxo Smith klineloy looks at Marx's plans and he's like. We're not going to do it that way I think we got enough data from Moderna we've got these other companies that we can trust. Um, let's just go with these 7 players. Um and that and like within days the portfolio was changed. He went. We're going to do sort of 2 of each type. Technology 2 virus vectors 2 and m mrna vaccines and ah two of these protein-based vaccines and we're just going to put all our cash there part of that I heard was because ultimately the Trump administration did not want to give as much money as needed to sort of do Peter Marx's program. Um, but they still gave a lot of money.
34:19.30
talknerdy
Okay, all right? and so how did they choose who who were the ones who got the bids.
34:25.13
Brendan
Ah, you know it was a combination of you know whether they could actually deliver so the major vaccine manufacturers like Merck and Sanofi and Pfizer well Pfizer sort of was funded in a weird way. We we can talk about that later. But yeah. Um, so sort of the big proven vaccine makers. Obviously they were in the game they had what it took. But yes you know ah companies like nova vax which started early. You know the idea was we can pair them up with. Sort of the ah you know there's there's what they call Cdmos. What's I mean like contract manufacturing organizations. Um, you know so it's like no vex is this little biotech and you pair it up with a company that just runs a factory for hire. Um, and so slo we sort of but. Basically was was in charge of matchmaking for these smaller companies. Um, but what were there companies that were kind of left out that would have been more promising I don't know I think I think sly. Ultimately we we know he did a pretty good job. Ah, and um, and.
35:24.98
talknerdy
E e.
35:30.94
Brendan
Yeah I think I think there you know some flaws with the program have emergence in. But ah, you know part of it was gut and sloy was a man who ah he had you know he had like 14 vaccines under his belt at that time like he'd worked at gsk for that long.
35:44.58
talknerdy
Gotcha.
35:47.22
Brendan
But it was it like a ah fair process was it Yeah, you know more or less I think.
35:51.85
talknerdy
Okay, you know, um, speaking of a fair process. 1 theme that I think emerges that you you grapple with in your book. Um, that also I'm hearing even um nibbles of it in this conversation is that a lot of the powers that be um, are as expected. Um, white men. Um, but a lot of the people sort of behind the scenes who were working you know, keeping their heads down and busting their asses to get these to get the science where it needed to be were um I actually I say actually as if it's surprising at all were women were very strong. Um. Badass women scientists and isn't this so often. The story that these women did not get much credit at all.
36:31.59
Brendan
Um, yeah I mean unfortunately you know I Yeah I I certainly had my eyes peeled for interesting female characters people who are doing amazing things because yes you know I write about.
36:46.70
talknerdy
E.
36:51.23
Brendan
Kismeck at corbit who's the ah dynamic. Ah ah, sharp tongueed woman who was running a lot of the experiments in Barney Graham's lab at the national institutes of health um, and at 1 point came under fire from Fox News is because of her quote unquote weird.
37:09.20
talknerdy
No god.
37:09.44
Brendan
Race theories when she was complaining about the toll of covid on the um on black and and brown communities I actually asked her I was like hey I was like how did you deal with that when you were you know featured by it when Tucker Carlson was you know taking it.
37:17.43
talknerdy
Oo.
37:27.20
Brendan
But but you know giving you a hard time and she's like oh it didn't bother me at all I grew up down the street from the you know headquarters of the Kkk. Um, yeah, so she she didn't care right? Yeah, yeah, no, she was she was She was great and.
37:33.17
talknerdy
Oh wow but she's like Tucker you know Tucker rolls right? off me oh wow.
37:45.15
Brendan
Yeah I think you know you look at the the you know the ranks in the pharmaceutical companies and of course in the Trump administration. It's just a bunch of white dudes and um and that's you know that's it kind of boring. So um, but I think that you know the other.
37:57.14
talknerdy
Right.
38:02.55
Brendan
Really important figure in this story is is catalle Kurico who I'm I'm sure you've heard. She's finally getting her due. She's the hungarian scientist whose discoveries. Ultimately we required to get that and mrna into cells to be used as a vaccine. Um, without her Moderna would not exist the Pfizer vaccine would not exist. Um, so so yeah I mean she's she's a very important player.
38:29.21
talknerdy
Yeah, and and obviously I'm I'm glad that she is getting her due and I'm glad that she's you know that that you took the time to kind of do that research and to write about that I'm so sad that the flip side of that is. Um, looking at the current climate now in 2022 is you know Joe Rogan interviews with with what was his name Robert Malone who like sort of is like I'm the guy who who really is the reason that these things exist and now let me tout a bunch of pseudoscientific nonsense and and so a lot of distrust in. In sort of the scientific method and it's such a bummer that we keep seeing the rhetoric and and the history to be honest, get twisted for some sort of um agenda driven kind of gain.
39:19.64
Brendan
Ah, yeah I mean that the guy you mentioned Robert Malone I've had a few run-ins with him myself. In fact, ah so ah, he he is yeah just ah, you know my opinion is yeah, he's something of a narcissist. He certainly had some very ah. You know, important scientific contributions to the um Mrna vaccine but he's by no means the quote unquote inventor of the vaccine. Yeah.
39:40.76
talknerdy
6 e. Right? right? and he's also it's sort of like you know, giving equal weight to to the climate denier and the and the you know climatologist on the news program. It's sort of like. He is one of many people who contributed to the science but he is this very loud voice now that sort of undermining a lot of public trust um, and it's frustrating to hear that because because of the cred that he has for having been instrumental. In the development of these vaccines.
40:19.90
Brendan
Yeah I mean it's it's it's incredible I mean somebody like that anytime somebody had some little role in the pharmaceutical industry and they become a you know a loose cann. They're propped up and I think yeah I think he's really.
40:33.30
talknerdy
E e.
40:38.82
Brendan
I think I yeah I shouldn't say anymore about more. But yeah.
40:40.89
talknerdy
I don't want to get your drivel. But yeah, it's dangerous. It's a dangerous landscape out there right now I mean just in general like we can take a step back from that specific example, but it's a dangerous landscape out there right now because I I believe that now more than ever we have access. To all the information that we like literally the information that most people need to make competent informed decisions exists and is accessible within seconds. The problem is there is an equal amount if not more information that contradicts. And that ah bends and that twists um, legitimate sort of evidence based um ah data and so now we're more than ever we're living in this landscape where we can sort of confirmation bias ourselves to death. We can make a determination based on. Personal feelings or thoughts or the last thing we heard or you know you know what our family believes or what our church tells us or whatever and then we can just go online and find a million things to support our view and it's so I mean I feel for people who are struggling and saying I don't know what's real anymore because. How could they right? unless they went to school and got a ph d and like learned how to do um internet searches and even even people who are really well educated in these areas get duped all the time because they're predatory journals because you know things are getting published all the time that should have never made it through peer review. It's a nightmare.
42:16.17
Brendan
Right? And I mean I think one of the hardest things about covid was there was so much unsettled science. There was so many times when we heard 1 thing and then the story changed because of new data. Um, which is a normal part of science. But it's very frustrating if you you know.
42:32.27
talknerdy
E.
42:34.95
Brendan
For late people to suddenly not know who to believe and who to trust and so um, ah yeah, this has been a great moment for science. But it's also been a huge moment for misinformation.
42:45.70
talknerdy
Absolutely I remember I just covered I think last week on the other show I work on an article by a brazilian researcher and kind of very outspoken science communicator who's who's spoken a lot against ah. Sort of handling of the of the epidem or the pandemic. Um, she wrote a piece with some co-writers about what they dubbed zombie science that that like during the covid pandemic there has been more there have been more preprints there have been just the amount of the sheer. Quantity of publishing has been astronomical and very often. This zombie science comes into play when researchers are like okay I'm going to sort of answer a question that's not even being asked or I'm going to take an approach that I've historically used for x. But I'm going to figure out how to like like so try to relate it to covid. Sort of put a covered sheen on it to make it seem publishable and then push that through the publication cycle. So we end up with this glut of kind of articles that aren't saying anything or articles that are asking or like quote answering questions that aren't even being asked. And we're flooded and it's become really difficult to see where is the sort of valid legitimate science where where are the the researchers that are answering questions that need to be answered because they're getting ah lost in the noise.
44:12.41
Brendan
Yeah I mean it's you can find a ah preprint to support anything you want I mean that's that's the problem I think looking you know. For instance, it's been really great that there are important people like Eric Topal on Twitter and other established scientists and.
44:17.81
talknerdy
Right.
44:32.43
Brendan
We're combing through some of this literature and helping sort of say okay this is something you should be paying attention to and this is not um, yeah.
44:36.25
talknerdy
Yeah, because even I mean even scientists are getting duped so it's very difficult for sort of everyday individuals who don't have a science background at all to make sense. Especially when the the arguments that are often made There's a lot of skin in the game like the people who are making arguments you know across a lot of different topics. Ah relating to the pandemic are making them from a position of well this is my economic perspective or this is my moral perspective or this is my religious perspective.
44:56.28
Brendan
Are.
45:13.66
talknerdy
Um, and it it confuses the data quite a bit. So Maybe we can take a little bit of time because it's something I weirdly haven't done on the show yet to talk a little bit about misinformation especially as it relates to vaccination sort of what we know what we don't know in your research have you come across like what are some of the most persistent and frustrating. Um, myths or ways that people are misinformed.
45:36.69
Brendan
Yeah I mean I think that that the myths seem there seem to be a new thing that pops up all the time. Um, you know as you mentioned Robert Malone I mean he's pointed at ah you know numbers of deaths that are.
45:43.60
talknerdy
Right.
45:54.80
Brendan
Outrageous in terms of vaccine side effects and so on I mean at this point we know that the vaccines are incredibly safe when people talk about how they were rushed through the approval process. That's not really true. Either. Yes, things moved fast. But at this point we have a database of millions. Hundreds of millions of people who have gotten the Mrna vaccines and and we have a pretty good handle on what are the major concerns that you might have you know the heart inflammation.
46:19.46
talknerdy
Yeah I think we're into the billions now globally like I think a a big chunk of people have been vaccinated with MRna vaccines and yes we might not have hard data on all of them. But um it we know a lot. We have a big database.
46:27.70
Brendan
Of.
46:33.29
Brendan
We know a lot. Yeah, and I think I think there are reasons on the edges of things to be. You know to be like should I get vaccinated or not if you you know I think with the young men and the heart Inflammation. You know I think there's like a ah risk benefit. Um. Calculus that needs to be made. Generally it's you know it's warranted I think um, but some of these misinformers they manipulate the data or they exaggerate it or um, they you know they they make the vaccination an issue of just you know personal. Health as opposed to sort of societal responsibility. Um, and so I think yeah, all all of these things I feel like ah ah need you know I I think that that all right we is the moment where I sort of.
47:29.44
talknerdy
No worries. Yeah I'll make a note for that. Um, and ah oh yeah, edit out losing train I do it all the time or I like go on this fucking like um soapbox and then I'm like wait what what were we talking about I got very passionate there for a second.
47:29.81
Brendan
Lost my train of thought so you can get that yeah starts the to you. The.
47:47.63
Brendan
Wrote.
47:48.61
talknerdy
Now I don't remember why? Um I Guess I guess to sort of back up a little bit and like the editor What we'll clean this up. Um, ah like is there any sort of specific stuff that you're like God Why is this one thing that I keep hearing so persistent like it's put to bed like we know that you know vaccines don't cause. Reproductive problems or you know are there things that you've come across that are like this is just kind of old playbook.
48:13.59
Brendan
Yeah, yeah, well I mean the playbook is is always evolving for sure I mean I when when this when this thing first came out when the vaccines first arrived of course it was that they were rushed um and then it later became. Oh we've got to be concerned that you know the thing that.
48:17.45
talknerdy
Right.
48:31.10
Brendan
Robert Malone has pushed is of course the idea that the coronavirus spike is itself. You know somehow causing all these different syndromes and problems that it's um, that's that's been something that that those folks have pushed for a long time. Um, that it's getting into the brain. Um. And I think that there are some interesting scientific questions around what the spike itself does. But so far we have been tracking this stuff and there are the side effects are just so rare. It is so worth it to get a vaccine. Um.
49:00.13
talknerdy
Right? yes.
49:03.29
Brendan
And then I think the most persistent thing you hear now of course is oh but the vaccines don't work. They don't stop infection blah Blah blah and right.
49:08.60
talknerdy
Ah, so frustrating I feel like there's there's a name for this kind of logical fallacy where people are like you see it even sometimes in the mental Health community right? because that's my field where oftentimes especially it's especially difficult with ah manic disorders like bipolar disorder. Or even some psychotic disorders where individuals will take a med then they won't have symptoms so they'll stop taking the med because they're like but I feel good I don't need my medication and it's like that's because the medication's working and I feel like so often that's sort of the logical fallacy that you see in the general public with vaccination like.
49:39.10
Brendan
Growth.
49:47.39
talknerdy
You don't need it. People aren't really getting sick or dying. It's like because they're vacc like ah God and now of course with oomicron it changed I'm sorry it's a massive mutation and yes people are catching it. But.
49:50.33
Brendan
Ah.
50:01.90
talknerdy
Everyone that is catching. Not everyone but the vast majority of people that are catching Covid who are vaccinated and boosted are either asymptomatic or have pretty mild symptoms like they're surviving.
50:11.71
Brendan
Yeah I mean I think what is it that you're like forty fifty times more likely to be hospitalized than you know if you're unvaccinated, um, you know I think it was one of these things where when the vaccines first came out everybody was so excited about that 90%
50:29.89
talknerdy
He.
50:30.97
Brendan
Plus um an efficacy number that it was stopping infection and we'd never seen that before for a respiratory virus like this It was just so exciting and of course that faded very very quickly. Um, yeah.
50:42.77
talknerdy
But that's also how epidemiology works right? like yes, the efficacy was really high but that only holds true if enough people get the jab quickly enough because if the virus is still just ravaging the community in the background because.
50:57.45
Brendan
Are.
51:01.48
talknerdy
So Few people are Vaccinated. It's going to Mutate. It's That's just how epidemiology That's how virology works The virus is going to have a chance to Multiply. It's going to have a chance to mutate and eventually all of our efforts are going to become less effective and we have to kind of get. Back to the drawing board.
51:19.95
Brendan
Yeah I mean and we've That's what we're saying with these with all these variants and the fact that's why there I think there's there's been this strong push by certain scientists here in the Us to say listen we shouldn't be focusing so much on the unvaccinated people and trying to convince them as.
51:36.70
talknerdy
A.
51:38.68
Brendan
We should be focusing on this global rollout and we need to be getting but because there's a whole slot slew of humanity that would be happy. You know, still happy to roll up their sleeves and get a vaccine. They should yeah.
51:49.31
talknerdy
Absolutely I mean yeah, think about the social Justice behind this. We're sitting here trying to bargain with people who are who have access and privilege and are just patently refusing when there's people begging for this kind of um, preventive treatment. Um, and and they don't have access at all. How gross is that That's gross.
52:10.87
Brendan
And it yeah I mean the worst I think my numbers are still are a little out of date but it was like haiti which is so close to us. You know it's got a vaccination rate of like just a few percent. Um that is.
52:28.31
talknerdy
Yeah, that's it's unacceptable and the truth is even if you are a complete and other pragmatist with no moral center whatsoever simply from an economic a global health perspective. It behooves you.
52:29.14
Brendan
That's wild it.
52:44.57
talknerdy
To help vaccinate people who are halfway across the world because eventually those illnesses make it right back here like there are so many reasons that we should be I think and we are. We're taking a large sort of ah.
52:49.67
Brendan
Her.
52:59.69
talknerdy
Hand in in this global rollout. But I don't I don't know where what's your kind of take as somebody who's really informed in the in the behind the scenes politics and economics and and science of of how vaccines are made and you know all the play all the different pharma companies and the players. What's your perspective on sort of the the United. Dates as role in the global rollout have we have we been doing a lot and it's just still not enough.
53:25.42
Brendan
You know I think you know obviously the previous administration was ah, not very outwardly. Not very supportive of global programs and so you know when Biden came into office they had to turn things around and yet they. Didn't move fast enough I think ah, you know that ultimately the the pharmaceutical companies will you know they're there to make a profit and so it's up to the global community and the wealthy countries like our own to you know, provide them with the incentives to vaccinate the world and I think. Yeah I think the administration did not step up to the plate. Um like.
54:05.93
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, and so where do we go from here you know I think that's such an important point like what has been done is done but there's still so much more to do because this isn't over.. There's no ah sense of normalcy in our day-to-day lives people are dying in droves across the globe. And even though we're in sort of a new phase that that requires some some amount of Adaptation. We can't sort of use the same. We can't perseverate and use the same Protocols. We've been Using. Um you know where do we go from here is the vaccine still paramount is it still our number one Public health. Um, ah tool and you know what are the next steps.
54:50.63
Brendan
Yeah I mean I think one of the big concerns of course is that a pretty wide sloth ah part of the population has gotten the chinese vaccines which really are of not proven effective against Delta and o macron. Um, and so you know. Getting vaccines out to some of these countries. Ah the like the um Mrna vaccines out is' still a really important part of this game and I think scientifically the question is still up as to what the next you know left hook the coronavirus is going to give us how much. Protection are we going to ultimately get from the omakron. Um, that has you know from the hybrid immunity that many people have gotten from having breakthrough infections and vaccine is that ah how long is this going to protect us and particularly of course the elderly and immunocompromised members of the population. Um.
55:35.85
talknerdy
E.
55:47.59
Brendan
You know I'm I'm pretty hopeful I think people who are young and healthy are probably you know, living in a very different world than people you know than you know my mother. For instance,, who's in her seventy s it's you know it's Scary. You know I don't know what's what the next thing. Ah, then the next turn of events is going to be is she going to get a new booster. Is she going to get a variant specific booster but I mean yeah, the story is is not yet over. Okay.
56:15.78
talknerdy
Yeah, and it it seems like if if those of us you know and I think I can include me and you in this in this category who are quote young and healthy. Um, exercised a bit more empathy and you know really kind of really worked on that. To look at the world through the perspective of the hundreds of millions of people who aren't so lucky to have a strong Immune system to you know, have all of these sort of medical. Um the access. Privilege all of those things to be able to say oh even if I get it nbd which as we know is not always the case. Um that we would be living a lot differently. You know I I guess I get angry sometimes and I try to fight against that. But I get angry because I work in a cancer Center. None of my patients. All of the people that I see on a regular basis are are desperately afraid desperately alone and this this pandemic has been eating away at not just their mental health but their potential for extra months extra weeks extra years. Even. Because some of them can't get vaccinated or boosted. They're simply too sick or you know even if they are vaccinated or boosted their chemotherapy or their immunotherapy has brought their immune system down to abysmal numbers and it's it's heartbreaking to see that these kind of forgotten individuals are not. Part of the public conversation right now.
57:52.98
Brendan
Yeah I mean that that is that is ah a travesty I think and I think you know, Ah, we also hear a lot about long Covid and you know I have I have a friend who suffers from that. Um, and you know I think. That is a reminder that you know even if you are young and healthy. There is. There's a potential risk that that can happen to you or someone that you love.
58:15.24
talknerdy
Absolutely yeah, yeah, and it's I mean again, it's not It's not just sort of like fear Monger I think we do have to find a balance because our mental health and our physical health are are two sides of you know they're 2 parts of a whole and we can't we can't ignore the. Importance of social interaction. We can't ignore the importance of ah exercise or of all these like healthy practices that are that are going to encourage wellness. Um, at the expense of of sort of this this fear and this um. I don't know communal sort of trauma. Um, and so it's like what is this path forward like how do we find a new way. You know in your experience as a science writer as somebody who has a lot of scientific background. Even though it's not in you know virology but it is in biology. And and who's been doing a lot of research in this area. You know what do you think the next months years are going to look like what is the new normal.
59:20.36
Brendan
Well I mean I I don't think we're going to ever go back to the way it was and and 2020 there's not going to be these massive shutdowns. No you know, politically socially. It's just not feasible anymore and it does' yeah, it just doesn't it doesn't make sense. But I think you know some of these.
59:24.55
talknerdy
E.
59:38.56
Brendan
You know tools that we have now the vaccines the drugs the masks. Um are you know are going to remain a day. You know a part of our lives for quite some time. Um, what other problem.
59:47.88
talknerdy
I Don't want to wear a mask but that's my biggest frustration I Just want to get back to not having to wear a mask. It makes it really hard to do therapy. So I'm mostly doing telehealth because I want to be able to see my patients' faces. Um, and I want them to see my face.
59:56.18
Brendan
Forgotten.
01:00:01.89
Brendan
Ah.
01:00:05.90
talknerdy
Um, and I don't know like have you done this recently where it's become such a normal thing that the the other day I went to the grocery store I was like shit like I didn't bring my mask. What am I doing? Why don't I have one in my car in my part I was in a rental everything about it was weird. Um, and it was just I was so caught off guard like I I was.
01:00:18.23
Brendan
Right.
01:00:25.30
talknerdy
Back in my head space of Twenty Twenty trying to live in 2022 and they did not adjust to each other. Um, it's it's weird I mean I know it's probably going to be a new normal but why can't we get to the point where it's sort of like how a lot of asian countries handled it before if you're sick. Or if you're nervous about exposure whatever you wear a mask and eventually please I don't want everybody to have to wear a mask but.
01:00:48.60
Brendan
Ah, yeah, I'm you know it's It's really hard. There's I think ah, there's a lot of sort of members of the public Health community who make us feel very bad for not wanting to wear a mask and they're like. Oh wearing masks is not a hard.. It's not. You know it's a very small thing to do and I'm like you.
01:01:09.62
talknerdy
Which is true in the Grand scheme of things. But I think over time it that that statement becomes less true.
01:01:15.45
Brendan
Um, yeah, if you have to wear it 12 hours a day or how you know if you're if you have a job where you actually have to go in in person I mean that's it's not pleasant. Um I'm sorry um.
01:01:24.43
talknerdy
Yeah, and there's no, you know you don't have negative Health consequences. We're not sitting here saying like oh it's actually reducing your Oxygen supply or anything like that you know like some of the Anti-masker arguments. But yeah, it's it's it's weighing on us psychologically I think.
01:01:33.14
Brendan
Okay, that.
01:01:41.65
Brendan
Yeah I think that you know I think the key here is that you know we've we've heard so much about the Cdc not being the ideal organization. It's always moving a little bit too slowly. It would be nice. You know that it.
01:01:42.17
talknerdy
It really is that.
01:02:01.60
Brendan
Cdc tells us okay things are getting bad put your masks on again and then when it's clear that things are using out then just drop the drop the restrictions a little bit more quickly I think and that would give us trust. Yeah.
01:02:08.46
talknerdy
Right? And I guess that's the question. Yeah, like you and I live in l a so we we sort of like no restrictions have been dropped there I think there was like a two week period or maybe it only felt like two weeks way back when prior to o macron when the mask mandate was lifted. Um, but for the most part mask mandate has been there since it started um, certain restaurants and and and businesses were closed many are open now but you need to be vaccinated to go there. You know blah blah blah it's like ah it's like a not a lockdown per se but definitely a massive change. To how we interact in public spaces. Um in other places things are lifted and they go back and they're lifted and they go back. But I mean for those of us who live in in I think more progressive um jurisdictions where the covered restrictions have been the strongest. Um it hasn't really let up. It's been how it's been since since Mid Twenty twenty
01:03:08.40
Brendan
I mean I think on the flip side. We're very lucky to live in a place that doesn't get that cold in winter. So we can we. But yeah.
01:03:14.42
talknerdy
Um, oh we're lucky about so many things we're also lucky that we I feel safe in my community and I don't feel like oh God there's going to be a bunch of people breathing covered all over me because they're antimaskers and but but I mean that's you know there's we're lucky in that regard too. Um. So when I sit here and I I throw my hands up and I say I don't want to wear my mask anymore I'm going to wear my mask like I'm not saying this as somebody who thinks we shouldn't I'm just wondering how long you know is this going to be the case is this actually the new normal before I remember we were sort of guessing ok in the Future. We probably won't shake hands.
01:03:36.70
Brendan
Mother.
01:03:50.91
Brendan
Are him.
01:03:51.91
talknerdy
Like that won't be a normal greeting at a business meeting like people are going to be weird about that. But in the future we always going to be putting on our NNinetyFive s like is this our dystopian future. Yeah, same same. Ah sorry I took it dark but ok, let's let's wheel back a little. We're almost.
01:04:00.60
Brendan
I I Hope not um, the ah right.
01:04:10.60
talknerdy
We're almost done with the show I'm going to close by asking you the same 2 questions I ask everybody? Um, but before we do that is obviously we did not cover the majority of what you write about in your book and I don't like to you know, completely summarize the book because hello everybody go out, get it read it? Um, but is there anything that you're like.
01:04:23.46
Brendan
For.
01:04:29.11
talknerdy
Oh gosh it's we should have talked about this any questions that remained unanswered or things you want to make sure you highlight before before we wrap up.
01:04:37.19
Brendan
Yeah I mean I Guess the only thing is we we went deep on a lot of the kind of scientific and and social issues around the pandemic and I think the the actual story of how the vaccines came to be and how they. Were developed with the most under the most dysfunctional administration in us. History is a pretty amazing story and I think that I've I've done I've tried to capture that in the Book. So I Think if people want to read it then?? Um, yeah.
01:04:57.79
talknerdy
A e.
01:05:11.96
talknerdy
Yeah, you really approached it with this kind of thriller like this very narrative nonfiction like it is a story. It is a page turning story that you'll want to see what happens next and the crazy thing is this was all happening very recently yet.
01:05:12.14
Brendan
I Encourage people to read it? Yeah yeah.
01:05:29.33
talknerdy
So many of us are in the dark about it. So this really does shine a light on what was happening quote next door. Well gosh Brendan thank you so much for for you know, taking the time sharing this story with us doing all this hard work to bring us this story in your first book congratulations on that. Um, before we go I was hoping you could answer the 2 big questions that I ask everybody who comes on the show because they all come at me with different perspectives that I'm always curious how they're going to answer okay get ready. They're big all right? so.
01:05:59.27
Brendan
I'm happy to.
01:06:02.78
talknerdy
The first one is when you think about the future in whatever context is relevant to you. It could be based on the work you're doing it could be based on something personal. It could be individual community national global cosmic you know. Whatever makes sense wherever you're at right now number one. What is the thing that's been keeping you up the most at night the thing that you're like pretty legit concerned about maybe feeling a bit pessimistic even cynical about um you know the thing you're worried about but then on the flip side of that so we end on a slightly more positive note. Where are you finding your hope your optimism your sort of authentic and really genuine. Um, ah positive outlook.
01:06:43.72
Brendan
Okay, the thing that keeps me up at night is is just the destruction of nature. It's just in moving so fast and most of us don't even see it. Um, but it just it makes me so sad to think about the world being turned into.
01:07:03.20
talknerdy
Right.
01:07:03.87
Brendan
Shopping malls and getting hotter and getting bleaker and and so I'm.
01:07:08.17
talknerdy
And we didn't even talk about how that directly relates to zoonotic infections like our actions are why these spillover events are happening so often right now.
01:07:19.64
Brendan
Absolutely I mean and it affects human health in so many other ways as well I mean in terms of pollution and you know we know that being living next to a freeway is as you and I both and we're not too far from the police is not.
01:07:23.65
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:07:34.00
talknerdy
How can you not in L A yeah.
01:07:37.97
Brendan
Not good for your health. Um, yeah, so that that keeps me up at night. That's um I mean just in my own lifetime I'm 43 now and just places have changed so fast places that I love. Um, so.
01:07:42.80
talknerdy
Yeah.
01:07:56.28
Brendan
But in terms of my my kind of optimism. Um, what do I have to say there. Um, you know I think as difficult as this pandemic has been for all of us I think.
01:08:03.18
talknerdy
Ah, you got something you could you could dig for something right.
01:08:15.66
Brendan
Ah, and and as much as it's torn the country apart I you know I Also there were so many things to be heartened about with the way that you know people pulled together and cared for each other and you know the way that you know we we had. You know our health care workers dedicating their lives to you know, taking care of the the Ill and the dying and that I mean it's There's been so much humanity that this pandemic has brought and that I think that's heartening to me and if only we can sort of. You know, address future challenges in the same way. Well, that would be great.
01:08:56.55
talknerdy
Absolutely yeah, if we can sort of lean into these strengths as opposed to always focusing on the weaknesses. Um and and by leaning into these strengths whether it's through the media through policy through development of strategy of public strategies. I Do think that we could be much stronger in ah in our approach to problem solving but we do have a tendency I think in the west to pathologize to focus on what's wrong and try and fix what's wrong without realizing that the other half of that equation is what is right? And how do we capitalize on what's right.
01:09:33.68
Brendan
Well said.
01:09:36.42
talknerdy
Ah, well Brendan gosh. Thank you so much for taking the time everybody the book is the first shots. The epic rivalries and heroic science behind the race to the corona virus vaccine. Um, it's been an absolute pleasure.
01:09:52.50
Brendan
It's great to talk to you to.
01:09:52.97
talknerdy
And everybody listening. Thank you for coming back week after week I'm really looking forward to the next time we all get together to talk nerdy.
