Heartbreak w/ Florence Williams
In this episode of Talk Nerdy, Cara is joined by Florence Williams to talk about her new book, “Heartbreak: A Personal and Scientific Journey.” They discuss what happens to your brain and body when grieving the loss of love, with a special focus on healing after loneliness. Follow Florence: @flowill.
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00:00.00
talknerdy
Well Florence. Thank you so much for joining me today. So I'm really excited to talk about your newest book heartbreak a personal and scientific journey and what a personal and scientific journey. It is.
00:04.58
Florence
It's a pleasure to be here Kara Thanks for having me on.
00:15.43
Florence
The.
00:19.16
talknerdy
Um, this is such a different approach to science writing I was so thrilled when it came across my desk because as somebody who studies Psychology. Um, but works heavily in a sort of skeptic role in some of the other podcast work that I do and and some of the advocacy and. And um, really activism that I do I often find that I don't know sort of the hard sciences The the wet sciences a little bit of turning their nose up to the psychological sciences and. And I find sometimes even within the um skeptic community that like feelings and emotions have somehow so like they have um, a negative connotation. They're carried like they're bad words like we must be.
01:03.13
Florence
As when I ask him right.
01:08.90
talknerdy
Critical and we must use logic and reason and emotion is antithetical to logic and reason which I do not believe is the case at All. So I'm very happy that you dug into the connections in your book between the physical, the psychological and the stuff that you cannot. Separate because it's inextricably linked.
01:27.20
Florence
Yeah, thank you so much I feel the same way I mean emotions haven't really gotten their due I mean they're starting to you know compared to where I think you know where psychology even was you know twenty or thirty years ago through the the important role that emotions play in our physical health.
01:40.46
talknerdy
Write.
01:46.85
Florence
And I felt like you almost had to write a personal book. Um in order to convey. Um, you know this sort of weight behind that statement. You know by by writing in the first person by talking about my own heartbreak. Um, you know I think.
01:55.53
talknerdy
A.
02:04.76
Florence
Science You know in some ways helped ground the narrative for me Journalistically and helped but I also think that the personal story really served the science. It went both ways.
02:13.16
talknerdy
Was that a departure for you because this is what your third book you've written. You know a fair amount of pieces in different outlets and you know as somebody who has written quite a lot of science was it odd for you to kind of. Peel back that curtain and expose yourself in that way.
02:31.19
Florence
Ah, it it both was and wasn't different my other 2 books were also written in the first person but loosely and and not very much. You know a little bit goes a long way. But I'm used to kind of using my own body almost as a proxy for talking about.
02:37.13
talknerdy
E.
02:47.36
talknerdy
He.
02:50.91
Florence
You know? For example, the effects of toxic chemicals. You know on breast milk I had my own breast milk analyzed for that in the nature fix I went around wearing an eeg cap to record my brain waves in different environments. You know, not not as a way to just like talk about myself. But. But hey we all have brains and and this is how they work and I'm going to present this in a first person way you know as a way to be sort of conversational and sometimes funny. Um and hopefully keep people engaged so with this book. You know it was the same impulse. Um, only I had to go much deeper I had to really. As you say roll that curtain back even more. Um, you know to tell a very intimate and and in some ways you know difficult story.
03:27.89
talknerdy
Right. And difficult it was I mean clearly it was difficult in that it was the impetus to dig into these these um explanations and these ah experiences but also difficult in that there was both. Or I shouldn't say both because I'm contributing now to this like binary but there was this um, exceedingly biological psychological biopsychosocial experience that you had um in loss you know this? this is a book about Love. But it's also a book about in some ways the antithesis to that or the the. Counterbalance to that which is which is heartbreak which is loss and so maybe before we get into what you learned through the process you can tell us a little bit about um about that loss.
04:19.83
Florence
Yeah, sure I think it is important to at least you know nod to it. Um I had been married for 25 years had just turned 50 but had actually met the man who would be my husband and when I was eighteen so we were actually together for 3 decades like my entire adult life.
04:34.47
talknerdy
Wow.
04:39.36
Florence
And ah, you know what happened is that we got to a point where he said to me you know I I think I need to go find my soul mate and you're not it and ah so it was a surprise it was devastating. Um, you know it was.
04:47.72
talknerdy
Oh my god.
04:58.77
Florence
It was you know I'd never experienced heartbreak before because I had been with one person for so long starting in my teens and I was just really knocked out by not just the emotional impact of it. But how my body responded and how my body registered you know that pain and so I. Had trouble sleeping I lost a ton of weight that I didn't want to lose um and and I started getting Sick. So the way I describe it in the book is that I I kind of felt like I was plugged into a faulty electrical outlet. You know there's this feeling of intense agitation and fear. You know, like what's going to happen to me Now. What's my future I'm afraid I'm afraid to be alone but also this feeling of exhaustion you know so agitation and exhaustion and and my body just being incredibly stressed out and so I I knew when I was getting sick I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. Just type one diabetes as an adult. It's pretty unusual. Um I knew that you know I needed to get better as soon as possible and I also really wanted to understand what was happening you know on a cellular level. What was happening to my Immune system. There was so much art about heartbreak.
05:57.32
talknerdy
Oh wow.
06:12.78
talknerdy
Um, yeah, oh for sure I mean I noticed that Helen Fisher did a blurb on your book and she's probably if I were to think of somebody who's written you know most extensively or extensively about like.
06:14.76
Florence
But there was so little science.
06:28.10
Florence
Guest.
06:29.16
talknerdy
Love and about the neuroscience of Love. She's kind of who I would point to and sadly I think that she doesn't get the respect I mean I think she does get respect in certain circles and in other circles. Unfortunately I think a lot of neuroscientists are like oh yeah, that's just too subjective. That's just.. It's It's not really our purview to go there and so it it doesn't even get talked about because it's hard to talk about and I get it like I mentioned before I'm you know I'm working on my Ph D and in clinical psychology and I worked with a professor for some time at my University on some research that she was doing into creativity and it was.
06:49.55
Florence
Here for.
07:08.39
talknerdy
For frustrating because what is creativity. How do you operationally define it and once you do how the hell do you study it I mean there's a reason I think that scientists shy away from these things because they're ineffable to a certain extent.
07:21.70
Florence
And yet there's an increasing recognition of the incredible importance of human attachment in determining so much of how we move through the world right? So much of our grief and our hope.
07:25.73
talknerdy
E right.
07:38.90
Florence
And our sense of community and our sense of self These things are all really so influenced and informed by the deep attachments we have in our lives and so I do think there's an increasing recognition of this.. It's a fascinating area of Study. You know more and more we're becoming aware that loneliness. For example, has a real a real effect on how healthy people are, um, it's ah it's ah it's as significant a risk factor for early death and disease as smoking and obesity.
08:02.66
talknerdy
Oh for sure. Yeah.
08:13.82
Florence
And yet it's only recently sort of gotten that kind of recognition.
08:15.38
talknerdy
Absolutely you know I feel like in the mental health field. We've long known that loneliness um isolation is probably the number one risk factor for um, for kind of a difficult recovery path but yet it's taken a while within sort of.
08:29.65
Florence
M.
08:35.15
talknerdy
The Broader medical community to see that something That's not often even asked about in a clinical interview.
08:41.47
Florence
And 1 of our biggest one of society's sort of biggest health challenges right now is is addiction an opioid addiction and ah you know there's a really direct link actually between craving you know this sort of um you know opioid engagement and the stimulation and receptors. Looking for a drug direct correlation to looking for love and looking for attachment. These are the same receptors.
09:03.71
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, oh gosh Yeah, and I mean it really kind of opens up so many opportunities and as you sat down to write this Book. Did you write the whole thing after the fact or did you write it as you were sort of. Coping and and growing and healing as a as a mechanism to do so mm.
09:29.35
Florence
A little bit of both I would say I did a lot of the reporting and research you know right away as it was happening to me. So for example, you know I I have an interview I had a meeting a couple meetings with Helen Fisher right after the split. And I was like Helen please tell me what is happening to my brain and she said oh kiddo sit down have a cup of tea I'm so sorry you're going through this. Let me explain to you? What's happening. Um. You know? So. So for me as someone experiencing heartbreak in the moment it was. It was really helpful and validating you know to talk to these scientists. Um, all of whom by the way said to me oh you poor dear you know I've also gone through heartbreak. Let me tell you about my heartbreak and um so it was very humanizing.
10:02.71
talknerdy
Yeah.
10:17.80
talknerdy
Gray.
10:18.86
Florence
You know I think for the book to to present present the scientists in a sort of human way. Um, and I did some of the writing you know early on but a lot of that writing I had to rewrite you know later like years later with the perspective of you know and not feeling quite so raw.
10:29.00
talknerdy
Sure sure.
10:37.21
talknerdy
Yeah, it's it's always so interesting. 1 of the things I often discuss with my patients in therapy is this idea that like it's the difference between sort of after the fact hindsight and being.
10:37.61
Florence
And in the middle of it.
10:50.83
talknerdy
In something and and the perspective shift that occurs once you're sort of out of it or once you've grown through it and how it's very hard for us and so this must have been a challenge for you I mean I'm making an assumption. But. Um, based on my own anecdotal experience and a lot of sort of first person reporting from working with patients. It's very hard to empathize with your past self. It's very hard to sort of put yourself in your own shoes at a time when your emotions were overwhelming because. Your hindsight later sees a clarity that and a perspective that you just don't have at that time.
11:28.79
Florence
I Think that's probably true and it also just presented challenges from a literary perspective because you don't necessarily want to write from the sort of raw emotion. You don't want to write from the wound as much as from the Scar if you're trying to.
11:33.57
talknerdy
E.
11:42.77
talknerdy
Ah, right? yeah.
11:47.80
Florence
Write something. That's you know, readable the writer I think needs a certain amount of distance now I mean I was still writing it. You know relatively soon after the split but but there's a big difference between sort of doing the revisions and the rewrites you know, 2 and three years later um, as opposed to like you know weeks and months later.
12:03.88
talknerdy
Right? This is not a book of like emo Song lyrics. This is like an actual investigation and so you know I I Usually think as a practitioner About. Um, experiences from a binary sort of perspective I Often think about the assessment and then I think about the intervention right? Like what is going on I Want to understand exactly you know, Um, what's happening in my brain in my body I Want to know is this pathological is this normal and then beyond that.
12:23.45
Florence
Now.
12:29.75
Florence
Exactly.
12:34.92
talknerdy
What can I do about it. You know how can I How can I feel peace. How can I feel safety and so I'm curious is that I mean maybe not in the moment but is that sort of a way that you conceptualized or do you have a sort of different um protocol as a journalist.
12:48.67
Florence
No I think absolutely you said it perfectly that um you know it was through the reporting and the researching and the trying to understand please help me understand what's happening to my body that in itself was very helpful to me just personally it's how I you know process questions.
13:07.83
talknerdy
Me.
13:08.34
Florence
And my life you know sort of through the lens of Science Journalist Um I think it it helped give me ah maybe a little bit of detachment which was great. You know it's like let's engage my cognitive system here I Want to know want to understand um and then it also I think you know really opened up all these doors.
13:14.97
talknerdy
Yeah.
13:27.34
Florence
To the healing journey itself like now that I know what I need to do to feel better. Um, this is going to help me you know, sort of map the road from here on.
13:35.89
talknerdy
Right? So yeah, maybe we can even kind of take this conversation into that conceptualization like we can start with some of the insights the sort of assessments that you discovered as you went and then and then after that we can talk a little bit about the. Interventions You know that the things that you learned the tools that you learned to try in and achieve that piece achieve that safety and and start that healing journey so early on you're broken right? You're feeling completely fractured and you're wondering. Not only why do I feel so.
14:03.65
Florence
Until yeah.
14:11.65
talknerdy
Ill in my mind but why do I feel so ill in my body. So so what were some of the first people you mentioned you reached out to Helen Fisher because she's sort of the obvious go to like she's the love neuroscientist.
14:18.97
Florence
Yeah, she was just weeks weeks after the split she said I you know you know, but she called me kiddo she's twenty years older than me. She's you know, completely warm lovely person. She's like listen Kiddo I can tell you what's happening. You know she she has done one of the few studies actually putting.
14:26.52
talknerdy
Um, yeah.
14:38.82
Florence
Um, dumped people and people rejected by love in a brain scanner is showing them pictures of their sort of rejecting beloved you know, scanning their brains and and seeing that um where their brains are active is in sort of 2 interesting areas. 1 is in the area of craving and addiction.
14:39.78
talknerdy
Ah.
14:56.19
talknerdy
E.
14:58.69
Florence
So you know, just because you've lost love doesn't mean that you stop loving that person. You know you're still missing them. You're sort of in some ways craving them your your body is sort of craving them because your bodies co-regulate. You know this is the person you've slept next to for. 3 decades and your heart rates are the same and your respiration levels are the same um your cortisol levels align you know in the mornings and the evenings. So so when that kind of primary attachment figure disappears your body sort of freaks out. It's like wait where is that.
15:27.69
talknerdy
Yeah.
15:32.37
Florence
Co-regulating force in my life where is that sense of security. Where's that sense of safety where's my home base. You know feels like it's suddenly gone and so the other place in your brain that really gets active. You know is is.
15:39.52
talknerdy
E.
15:48.71
Florence
The brain region associated with physical pain very similar to what's happening when you experience emotional pain. You know it does feel physical and and you know poets tell us this all the time I mean the metaphors of heartbreak like literally they're about pain.
15:55.55
talknerdy
And it does feel physical.
16:06.66
Florence
And they're about being broken and and and it's that way because our brains take social pain incredibly seriously. Ah, you know as human animals we need these people around us in order to be safe and our our nervous systems know that.
16:21.60
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
16:25.61
Florence
Safety in numbers. We need close people around us. You know to help us raise our young and to help us cooperatively hunt and make meaning and culture all of these things so that really validated what I was feeling you know which was this feeling of being unsafe and it became clear to me that. You know when we're left by someone like that our primary attachment figure. Um, our nervous systems kind of respond as if we are literally left alone on the Savannah and we're being circled by hyenas because in our deep human past that is in fact, what it meant to be alone.
17:01.89
talknerdy
Right? It's a threat. It's a legit and it's not just that you're less safe but you're like actively experiencing threat. You're very vulnerable.
17:03.68
Florence
You were less safe more vulnerable.
17:10.77
Florence
Yeah, and so your your body you know you're pumping out all these stress hormones. Your body is really going into fight or flight because it's expecting that. That's what's going to happen. It doesn't make the distinction. You know that this is just a social rejection So it started to sort of make sense to me that way. It became clear to me that.
17:23.95
talknerdy
Right.
17:30.72
Florence
Um, in order to heal I was first going to have to learn how to calm down not be so acutely. You know threatened and so one of the next people I spoke to ah was this fascinating researcher psychologist at the university of Utah Paula Williams
17:32.82
talknerdy
M.
17:49.72
Florence
Who studies what makes people more resilient in the face of you know, life's tragedies because if you look at the statistics. Um the health statistics for people who are divorced which unfortunately I did and it was really a bummer. Um, you know people who are divorced.
17:52.16
talknerdy
Okay.
18:04.47
talknerdy
E.
18:09.27
Florence
Like so the worst health outcomes of anyone like more so than people who are always single more so than people in bad marriages more so than widows and widowers. Um I know I know well it depends How bad the marriage is I mean if you feel like.
18:16.39
talknerdy
Wow More so than bad marriages that that really surprises me. Okay, right right? If it's abusive and you're dealing with those kind of adverse. Yeah yeah.
18:26.73
Florence
If you feel physically threatened in your marriage. Um, if it's abusive. Yes, but if it's sort of like ah you know, just like a medium sort of bad marriage. But but in a predictable way. Um I mean there are bad health outcomes associated with that. Don't get me wrong, but but it's still worse if you're newly divorced. Ah, you know 23% increased risk of early death 24% increased risk of heart attack for like the next nine years increased risk of diabetes and you know, ah dementia I mean it just goes on and on but she said to me look we know some people.
18:51.31
talknerdy
Wow.
18:57.15
talknerdy
Um.
19:02.93
Florence
You know, just really sail through this and are more resilient and I you know I just kind of leaned forward and I said please tell me who who these people are what's the secret sauce because I want to be 1 I need to feel better and she said ah well what we are finding in our lab is that it's the people.
19:09.00
talknerdy
Right.
19:21.16
Florence
Who are able to really appreciate beauty and Cultivate Beauty Cultivate awe. Um, these are the people who are able to make the most sense of their tragedies sort of tell themselves stories.
19:25.82
talknerdy
Hmm, right.
19:39.87
Florence
You know in which they come through. Okay.
19:40.80
talknerdy
Yeah I mean that that just it it aligns so deeply with sort of the the literature on existential psychotherapy and this kind of idea of meaning making this idea of like.
19:51.85
Florence
Um, exactly.
19:59.26
talknerdy
You know I often think about it like again here comes my binary self. Um very human of me. Um that you know oftentimes in in Psychology. But also I think in medical um in the medical community as a whole we look at diagnostics we look at quote Pathology and we think about how do we make it. Better. How do we fix it? How do we? How do we take this quote bad thing and improve it or or you know overcome it. But I think what we often don't think about is that the equal and opposite side of that equation is what is right? What is going? Well where are the strengths and how do we lean into those things. How do we. Identify all the good that is happening even amongst this background of garbage and how do we find the meaning and the hope and the and the joy in the good. Yeah yeah.
20:40.89
Florence
Exactly. The growth. Yeah, yeah, right? and people were telling me. Oh There is this thing you know, Post-tramatic growth. It's possible and you know at the time I was like ah really I don't believe it. It doesn't you know I don't know how is this ever going to feel good. Um, but I.
20:53.22
talknerdy
Is e.
21:04.96
Florence
Was someone who was already prone to you know, appreciate nature. You know as a source of Beauty um had written this book the nature fix I was like yeah if anything can cure me. Maybe it's nature but that conversation with her really did determine.
21:08.82
talknerdy
Yeah.
21:21.41
Florence
The course of the next two years as I sort of desperately tried to find beauty. You know if this was going to be the cure to my heartbreak I was going to get on it. Bring it on bring me some beauty I was ready.
21:25.92
talknerdy
Right.
21:33.40
talknerdy
I Love that and so as you sort of dug into this this new journey to find beauty right to to to lean into awe. Um, you also continue to learn about what was going on in your mind and your body you continue to talk to different ah researchers right? like everything from neuroscientists to psychologists to even like anthropologists to try to understand you know what's going on with me.
21:53.76
Florence
So I did I did.
22:04.95
talknerdy
As as you went through that journey of of Self-discovery Um, was there anything that really surprised you kind of like that divorce statistic Really really surprises me. Um, was there anything like that that felt almost counterintuitive or like oh my God seriously.
22:13.17
Florence
Yeah, well I think you know one of the central sort of scientific investigations in the book was working with a geneticist an immuno geneticticist named Stephen Cole at you know Ucla.
22:24.96
talknerdy
And. E.
22:32.75
Florence
And ah, as I was trying to understand why I was getting Sick. He said to me, you know we have been my lab has been investigating. Um, why it is that Lonely people are dying earlier and getting sick and you know we analyze 200 genes in the genome. That we think are are particularly linked these white in these white blood cells these transcription factors that turn our genes on and off um that are really changing the Immune profile of people who report feeling lonely and he's why you come into the lab and we'll look at your blood and.
23:03.29
talknerdy
Ray.
23:11.13
Florence
We'll see what's going on with your white blood cells and and then we'll do it again. You know in six months or twelve months and then we'll do it again after that and we'll see if you're actually able to sort of work your way out of heartbreak and I thought that was fascinating and and the reasons that he told. Me our immune system changes I thought were really surprising and fascinating ah and and it's mostly that when people feel lonely when they feel like they're alone in the world. Ah they upregulate genes for inflammation and it's probably because you know their bodies think.
23:42.90
talknerdy
Mean.
23:48.96
Florence
That they are literally walking through the jungle by themselves and they are perhaps about to be attacked by predator or they're about to get injured so their bodies are preparing for a flesh wound. But the reason um these other changes happen is that you know our Immune systems unfortunately cannot do everything. I Mean it's a limited resource and so if they're putting a lot of a lot of um energy into Inflammation. They're actually going to turn down the transcription factors of the genes for fighting viruses. So um, so we turn up inflammation we turn down virus Fighting capability.
24:19.15
talknerdy
Oh interesting.
24:27.44
Florence
Um, which is why people with HIV for example who he spent years and years studying. Um, if they say that they don't have enough social support they produce fewer t cells they progress to full-b blown disease faster and they die earlier.
24:35.60
talknerdy
E.
24:46.84
Florence
Ah, we're seeing this also now in studies with chimps who are given SIvSimian immunodevi virus deficiency and a virus and then ah then if they're socially isolated if they're placed in cages by themselves. They also progress to disease more quickly. So um.
24:51.42
talknerdy
Alone.
25:06.65
Florence
Thought that was fascinating I thought his sort of evolutionary explanation was fascinating that you know maybe we're about to get attacked by a beast at the same time because we're alone. We don't need the virus protection because viruses are spread in groups. But of course it turns out to be exactly the wrong response.
25:18.39
talknerdy
So right.
25:24.20
Florence
Um, you know for sort of living in modern life where exactly right? And in fact, guess what there's a pandemic. So so we need the viral protection.
25:24.85
talknerdy
Yeah, where we're not going to be like injured on the street simply because we're I mean we may be but it's not yeah, our risk is is a lot different. It's it's right? Or yeah, you know it's It's interesting because it. It's an explanation that doesn't require a specific genetic um like a gene locus because what I was concerned about and what I'm often concerned about I see a lot is this like this desire to like what's the gene for loneliness right? like.
25:58.94
Florence
Right? the.
26:01.15
talknerdy
Like where in your genome are lonely people like they must. They must have more or they must have a mutation on this one region and not lonely. People must not and you know I think it's such a simplistic view and it's I was worried about the kind of um, ah.
26:07.34
Florence
Page it and.
26:20.84
talknerdy
Formula that way. But this idea that you know it's obviously a um, ah multigenetic Phenomenon that has much more to do with your sympathetic nervous system and you know, upregulation and downregulation of multiple genes that are involved in your Immune response. Um. And exactly what you said it makes so much sense. This idea that sort of the same Immune system is responsible for fighting viruses. That's responsible for keeping a ah wound clean. Um, yeah.
26:50.93
Florence
Really what we're talking about are epigenetics right? So um, you know our our Immune systems are brilliant and that they are designed to respond to real-time events. Um, they're fast. These are you know white blood cells get made in your bone marrow. They get released you know every day.
27:00.94
talknerdy
Yeah, they're fast.
27:10.43
Florence
And they're going to change. Um, you know the the formula for those cells is going to get changed depending on your circumstances. So grief and loneliness are actually epigenetic factors predisposing us to illness.
27:21.37
talknerdy
Right? right? they're they're sort of they're behavioral. They're things that exist that influence the upregulation, the downregulation the turning on the turning off of genes.
27:34.75
Florence
That's right.
27:37.27
talknerdy
And um in in a profound way. It sounds like I'm I'm I'm actually really curious I don't know if you sort of got to the bottom of this or if there is a bottom of this to get to. But of course I'm asking very selfishly and narcissistically I am somebody.
27:40.29
Florence
Yes.
27:52.70
talknerdy
Who spends a lot of time alone and I love being alone and I actually struggle with traditional relationships because of that and I'm sort of you know if I personally think I'm I'm pretty um healthily attached. But I probably.
27:54.50
Florence
No, is you know.
28:10.60
talknerdy
Tend towards a avoidant attachment style a little bit um and and so I feel like my experience is very different from from a lot of the people that I talk to a lot of the people that I know who need much more sort of human connection I do need it I mean I am still a social creature and I love it. But.
28:10.60
Florence
Um, since as and.
28:22.99
Florence
This it I said this boy I said.
28:29.88
talknerdy
I Also require a lot of rebound time by myself after and it's very hard for me to share a space with people and I'm wondering you know what's the explan you know Obviously I think there's behavioral explanations and developmental explanations. But what did for example, the geneticist or this or the anthropologists say about those.
28:31.34
Florence
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:45.10
Florence
Um, yeah.
28:50.90
talknerdy
Differences those individual differences.
28:50.27
Florence
I mean I did learn a little bit about that I mean it makes sense that you know we all have very different Personalities. We have different needs. Um, you know humans are incredibly variable and in how how we have relationships how we pursue relationships um and loneliness. Is a concept I learned that is really subjective So It's you know it's not the same as social isolation Loneliness is a feeling that some people have and some people don't exactly you can be in a marriage and feel Lonely. You can be in a city and feel lonely.
29:16.70
talknerdy
Right? You can be alone and not feel lonely. Yeah, for sure.
29:28.30
Florence
You can be alone and feel like oh my god I love being alone like you said I I can get so much work done and I get a lot of fulfillment from my creative mind that can you know run wild when I'm not distracted and so on and so forth if you feel comfortable and great and safe in your. You know, sort of a somewhat isolated state then you're not going to feel like you're threatened. Um, so your your immune system is probably just great and in fact um, this was so fascinating what Steve Cole told me is that he thinks the antidote to loneliness is not.
29:47.18
talknerdy
E drive.
30:03.66
Florence
Necessarily sociality or sociability the antidote to loneliness is purpose and mission. So if you are feeling you know that you are really fulfilled in a sort of cosmic sense like that is the best thing for your immune system.
30:08.29
talknerdy
Right? Ah I Love that.
30:19.74
talknerdy
And that makes a lot of sense too because I think that you know there there are so many different like you said personality factors and there's introversion and there's extroversion. There's a million different ways to slice and dice this and some people get overwhelmed with too much stimulation and and they need that time and other people.
30:20.40
Florence
I Thought that was really fascinating.
30:27.72
Florence
Totally.
30:37.26
talknerdy
Require a lot of stimulation to to kind of reach a baseline um, but this idea of of meaning of purpose and and a lot of existential psychologists divided into sort of 2 different buckets. We have our. Meaning in the experience. So the day to day everything we do you know am I finding awe in in these like small things and then the sort of horizon purpose that thing you can never quite reach like the greater meaning of your life. Um, and if you have a foot in both of those pools. Um.
31:03.43
Florence
Yeah, yeah.
31:12.76
talknerdy
Whether you're alone or with others or hopefully finding a balance between the 2 Um, there's a fulfillment I guess that's what it is right? It's a fulfillment right.
31:22.70
Florence
Yeah, your body just loves that your white blood cells. Love it If you are you know feeling like your life has meaning you know like you're going places you want to go? Um, like you're connected and sort of engaged to. You know these cosmic questions you know that you're pursuing. Um, you know if you feel sort of spiritually fulfilled and and part of that means you know fulfilled in your mission. Whatever you know purpose is is another one of those ineffable words but but your body somehow seems to know when.
31:59.29
talknerdy
Yeah.
32:02.12
Florence
You have optimism about the world and about your place in it.
32:04.42
talknerdy
Well and it's it probably does translate to a safety a sense of calm. This is why interventions like mindfulness like breathing techniques like grounding techniques can really be important for. Anxiety and especially for chronic stress right? because when you're grounded and you start to feel a sense of security and safety a foundation. Um, a lot of those those sort of Robert Sealsky why zebras don't get ulcers right? like chronic inflammatory responses.
32:32.62
Florence
Right? right.
32:39.37
talknerdy
Are quieted.
32:41.40
Florence
That's right and you see you know even in sort of monks you know and spiritual leaders who do live alone or you know are not you know in personal close relationships. Um, they're super healthy. You know if you look at their Immune systems.
32:42.95
talknerdy
We.
32:58.42
Florence
And um in terms of you know what? their what? their nervous systems are doing Um, you know it looks really good.
33:04.85
talknerdy
Ah, you know this this now I Want to do a study I am I am inspired now because I'm curious if we look at I'm very interested in aging um because I work in in cancer and in end of life kind of therapy and I'm I'm curious if we were to look at.
33:14.48
Florence
Yeah.
33:24.49
talknerdy
Um, older individuals who either struggle with loneliness because we know that this is ah it's almost an epidemic amongst older individuals because of the way that we do elder care in our country. Um, so those who struggle with loneliness and have a lot of the associated Health consequences. And if we were also to look at older people who sort of identify as or fall under the model of I don't know have you heard much about gerrotranscendence. So. There's this Fascinating. It's it's sort of in developmental Psychology. You know as you were looking through like attachment style and stuff like that.
33:52.84
Florence
No, what is that.
34:03.19
talknerdy
I mean we often see that developmental psychology. There's a lot of time spent on youth right? There's all these individual stages from age 3 to 4 This is what happens from 4 to 5 this and then by the time we're like 30 we're like and then you're old like nobody talks about the differences right? um.
34:16.58
Florence
You're done. You're baked.
34:19.80
talknerdy
And so Eric Erickson who's one of the the most famous sort of developmental psychologists as he was aging and dealing with severe dementia his wife um continued to you know she carried the torch a lot actually just didn't get credit but she continued to carry that torch and write about this later in life phenomenon which was then picked up by this guy named I think Lars Torsome
34:30.26
Florence
You.
34:38.69
talknerdy
And the idea is that in gerrotranscendence you see a very specific phenomenon where some older individuals feel very um ah at peace they are very much tapped into this idea of awe and meaning and purpose but they they increasingly spend more and more time alone and they.
34:41.85
Florence
Smooth. Awesome! Okay, nice. Yeah.
34:56.62
talknerdy
They don't want to engage in sort of worldly, you know they disengage from technology very often. They they like to spend more time in nature. It's a lot of like self- contemplative meditative time and and within this sort of slice of the population. There are very positive.
35:04.17
Florence
Um, as for.
35:15.42
talknerdy
Mental Health outcomes but only particular people find themselves. Yeah in this in this. Ah it would be yes, it would be so cool to see if if you really can find a distinction between those in gerrot transcendence and those struggling with.
35:18.97
Florence
That's really fascinating. Well that seems aligned with you know what Paula Williams was telling me about this capacity for beauty.
35:33.55
Florence
Well, you should work with Dr Cole and and check take a look at their 200 transcription factors.
35:34.24
talknerdy
Low loneliness.
35:41.35
talknerdy
Right? Oh my gosh so they really are digging deep into the genome. Yeah yeah, and so what you looked at your own right? Were you kind of were you just full of Inflammatory factors.
35:44.42
Florence
Oh yeah. Oh yeah I was in fact, he said that you know my first blood sample you know pretty close after my marriage fall apart was um, he said yeah you you have the blood of a lonely person. It was like ouch um and then you know I tried all these things to get better.
36:00.17
talknerdy
Oh my god.
36:07.17
talknerdy
And.
36:08.46
Florence
Um, and some of them move the needle on my white blood cells made them look better. Some of them didn't so so it was super interesting.
36:13.36
talknerdy
Yeah I'm I'm curious as somebody who, um, really respects the scientific method and really is a firm believer in evidence-based treatment and has you know a hard skeptical bent but also as somebody who works within a field. That doesn't have a lot of evidence supporting it simply because it doesn't lend itself to the classic randomized controlled trial model. Um, you know which is individual long-term Psychotherapy. It's just very hard to study because it's so particularly tailored to the individual and especially these sort of humanistic existential interventions.
36:47.69
Florence
Right.
36:53.60
talknerdy
I'm really curious. You know you did a lot you everything from like psychedelics to like different you know psychological interventions to these like sort of like spending more time in nature. Did you find anything that felt like patently pseudoscientific was there anything that was like okay this is snake oil. This is sort of.
37:01.68
Florence
Isha and her.
37:12.32
talknerdy
Clearly practitioners or Charlatans are preying on Lonely people and taking advantage of them.
37:16.84
Florence
Well yeah, a little bit I mean I felt like some of the sort of myths. Um the sort of bromides the standard advice you kind of hear about heartbreak I Felt like some of them were kind of for me, you know, just empty and and in fact, didn't have a lot of science behind them.
37:32.90
talknerdy
E.
37:34.42
Florence
Whereas there were other things that you're told sort of not to do that? Um, that that actually worked and there was science behind those things. So 1 example of that is you know I think often and you know after long marriages end you hear this advice that oh you shouldn't jump into another relationship too soon? um.
37:50.12
talknerdy
Oh I Love the rebound I find the rebound is very healing for me. Ah.
37:52.36
Florence
You know you? ah there you go I'm all about the repo right? but but but so many people would say oh you need to love yourself first. You need to heal yourself first. Um, and I was like ah don't know. Um you know where's the.
38:01.97
talknerdy
So right.
38:09.83
Florence
It's where's the science that says I shouldn't have a rebound and in fact, there's some good science saying you should have a rebound that people who have a rebound. It's good for self-esteem. It's good for self-confidence. Um, you know that physical touch actually does calm your nervous system If it's someone you trust? Um, and you know that's maybe a high bar.
38:12.77
talknerdy
Nice good for self-esteem.
38:23.21
talknerdy
Right.
38:28.97
Florence
These days on the dating market. But if you if you can find someone you trust? Um, and really trust then you you know you'll feel safer I mean I you know I was checking my blood sugars you know after nights when I was dating people and my blood sugar was better. You tell my my nervous system was better.
38:29.10
talknerdy
I.
38:46.98
talknerdy
And a lot of it has to do with what you're trying to get out of it right? like I think having companionship for a night versus having companionship for a year like the the bar for trust is very different like do I feel safe is a very different thing like.
38:48.75
Florence
Um, so.
38:53.97
Florence
Great.
39:02.34
talknerdy
Can I engage with this person physically or can I have ah you know a nice time for a night or for a week or for whatever versus am I going to you know, be vulnerable and and give them all of my past trauma and all the things that come with like ah with a long term relationship.
39:13.10
Florence
Yeah, right, right? right? Yeah I think there's kind of a probably and a healthy intermediary zone there intermediate zone. Um, you know if it's just a night or 2 You may not feel safe at all. Really um so um, yeah.
39:21.90
talknerdy
Right.
39:32.98
Florence
I Mean so that that was an example of one of the things I did that you know was kind of counterintuitive.
39:35.84
talknerdy
Interesting and so what I hear in sort of that um quote advice to sort of love yourself first and you know is I think an earnest and and legitimate um argument for self-compassion and self-kindness but also. Ah, pretty blatant assumption that you don't already have self-compassion that that's why you're alone? yeah.
39:55.94
Florence
Yeah, exactly exactly exactly it just didn't that just didn't hit me right? You know that kind of advice. Um and and another thing is that you know people say oh you should you know? um, take care of yourself self-care self-care. Ah, you know facials massages you know yoga. Whatever um, and the science isn't really there either. In fact, Dr Stephen Cole at Ucla um, he has looked at these white blood cells of people who do you know sort of um, who pursue hedonic.
40:15.13
talknerdy
Right.
40:30.24
talknerdy
A.
40:32.15
Florence
Happiness which is sort of like pleasure. What's going to make me feel pleasurable. Um and has not found that that really has a big effect on their white blood cells or their Immune systems which is so interesting because you know we're sold this all the time like you need this face cream to you know, get this groupon for this facial. Um.
40:40.80
talknerdy
E e.
40:51.70
Florence
So that you'll you know, be happier. Um, and.
40:52.17
talknerdy
Right? It sounds like there's sort of ah a happy medium that there's you know if you're if you're engaging in things because they help you feel safe and calm and centered and grounded. It's 1 thing for sure. But if you're engaging in it. Oh yeah I love a hot bath I take hot bats all the time.
41:00.20
Florence
Yeah, yeah, like yoga could be really beneficial and the I did a lot of hot baths was great but the facial Maybe not so much.
41:11.71
talknerdy
And I don't do it because of the health benefits. You know I do it because it feels good and because it calms me down and I think yeah, it also helps us sleep I always feel like yeah I'm really tired after a bath which is good if I'm I'm having a hard time sleeping.
41:16.41
Florence
Well, there's something about warmth. You know that that is really great for as mammals. We know we like warmth it does exactly exactly anything that helps you sleep.
41:30.87
talknerdy
But there's this whole. There's this whole sort of like social grossness and we especially experience it as women right? with all the internalized sexism and misogyny and kind of patriarchy that that is is the entire human story right? Yeah and and.
41:44.56
Florence
There's a little bit of that going on.
41:47.60
talknerdy
You know this idea of sort of like you need the facial. You need the treatment. You need this like you know this makeup you need these, you go buy these new clothes that yes for some people can be empowering and calming and centering and for other people just contribute to this sense of like I'm not good enough.
41:52.98
Florence
Right? right.
42:03.80
Florence
Yeah, and like body dysmorphia and sort of superficial validation right? All of that whereas you know in the in in the in the work that Cole has done. It's people who pursue eudemonic happiness which is this happiness that's really associated with again the purpose.
42:07.24
talknerdy
Yeah.
42:22.10
talknerdy
Right.
42:23.64
Florence
And the meaning and I'm doing something you know that is going to make a difference in the world that gives me as you know a reason to get up in the morning. Those are the things that may not be mirthful cheerful you know experiences but they're actually going to really make you feel better.
42:39.58
talknerdy
Oh interesting. Yeah I like that and now I'm trying to like Square my therapeutic circle because of course I also kind of sing the praises of self-care but I very often use the um, the analogy of the Oxygen mask on the airplane.
42:55.92
Florence
Right? right.
42:57.75
talknerdy
Like if you don't put your mask on first you're not going to be able to help other people and so really, it's about you have to be in a position to be able to to pursue that you demonic? Um, ah yeah, like if you're if you're falling apart. You're not going to be able to go and be a part of the community.
43:08.76
Florence
That's right and and and that's right and why you can't really heal if you're still in this acute phase of a fight or flight.
43:16.19
talknerdy
Right? right? right? And so what do you do though when you're in that acute phase of fight or flight what were some of the interventions that you came across that did help you you know I I often use this like very pithy phrase honestly, the first 5 times my um. I had a professor who used it a lot and the first five times I heard it I rolled my eyes and now I use it all the time because it's it's deep even though it doesn't seem so is this question of like do you have your feelings or do your feelings have you? Yeah and so like obviously post heartbreak posttrauma post. Ah.
43:41.67
Florence
Um, oh that's nice. Yeah.
43:55.10
talknerdy
You know, very bad news kind of boundary experience in life. Um, your feelings have you? You don't have a sense of control. You feel like you're drowning. You're you're really just trying to to kick as hard as you can to keep your head above water and then eventually you get to a place where you can cry and you can regulate that and it's good to have tears.
44:01.89
Florence
That's right.
44:10.98
Florence
Thanks believe Yes, heard.
44:13.87
talknerdy
And it's good to feel ah the broad spectrum of feelings but they feel like they are your feelings. They're not controlling you and so you know for me a lot of it is in the acute phase. It's about getting to the point where you have your feelings your feelings don't have you and then in the more chronic phase of chronic. That's a bad word long term phase of.
44:18.45
Florence
Um.
44:32.29
talknerdy
Psychological intervention. It's about exploring and sort of going towards that purpose and meaning that horizon. But you were in the acute phase you were drowning.
44:39.73
Florence
I was drowning and I I Well I certainly cried a lot. So then I'm glad glad you're saying that was helpful I think it was I think it was I think it was um, you know for me I had this compulsion to sort of move I wanted to move my body I.
44:44.84
talknerdy
Yeah, oh yeah.
44:54.51
talknerdy
Are you.
44:59.59
Florence
Wanted to be outside I wanted to hear birdsong I wanted to be able to see the horizon you know, see the clouds. Um, those things I knew would help me feel a little calmer and the science is was really there and I I talk a lot about that in in my book. The nature fix. Um I also meditated every day.
45:09.37
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah. Who.
45:19.44
Florence
I Still am doing that. Um I think you know people talk about how that can help you ah sort of have your feelings and not have them have you if you can become kind of aware. You know of how your your brain is working and and see these feelings you know Rise and and overtake you even just that.
45:25.75
talknerdy
Yeah.
45:38.70
Florence
Awareness of of how those those feelings are working on. You can be helpful. Um I you know tried to also distract myself you know part of that was with friends um part of that was you know I think through the dating you know too I.
45:41.60
talknerdy
So yeah.
45:57.49
Florence
I planned a big expedition. Um, and the logistics of that required so much sort of frontal Cortex executive function that that also helped sometimes lift me out of kind of my limbic brain. Um, and I tried I tried Emdr therapy too which is you know similar in that you you.
46:03.84
talknerdy
E. Yeah, for sure.
46:17.00
Florence
Kind of bring up your worst Memories. You know of the heartbreak or of you know scenes with your ex or whatever and then you do this sort of bilateral tapping. In this case, it was tapping but sometimes it's eye movement back and forth that you know somehow helps decouple. Your your your big emotions from the memory itself.
46:40.70
talknerdy
Um, yeah I've I've found Emdr to be a really curious beast because it is technically listed as an evidence based intervention. But there's still a lot of um, skepticism as to the mechanism because it doesn't have a lot of face validity and the best way I've heard it described was um.
46:50.76
Florence
Yeah.
46:59.22
talknerdy
Ah there's ah, a psychologist named Dr Rosen who who writes about it as as though it's a quote purple hat therapy. So the way he describes it is like let's say you have somebody who is desperately afraid to drive. They have like severe phobia of driving and you teach them a lot of grounding techniques and a lot of really legitimate sort of. Um, ah cbt approaches to acute anxiety and then you put a purple hat on them and you say this purple hat is going to protect you while you drive and then they go drive and of course they fall back on all these grounding techniques and all of these tools that they've already learned but they say oh the purple hat.
47:31.76
Florence
No is.
47:37.13
talknerdy
Made it so that I could drive and I worry sometimes that Emdr has a similar thing that it's actually the therapy. That's so beneficial to you but having this like externalization or this movement or this like secondary sort of thing that makes it marketable.
47:53.76
Florence
Yeah I But I I think that there definitely could be a placebo component to the success of you know anything? Um, but I have also seen some studies that put Emdr head to head with other forms of therapy. You would you think would have that same sort of.
47:56.20
talknerdy
Is.
48:08.62
talknerdy
M.
48:12.87
Florence
You know, therapizing benefit. Um and the and the people in emdrs really seem to do better.
48:16.27
talknerdy
Interesting Yeah, and and maybe there is something to be said too about externalizing when you're dealing with something that is so emotionally um, intense.
48:27.32
Florence
So listen.
48:29.87
talknerdy
Being able to externalize a little bit being able to focus on something else while you are doing some of that processing Puts distance. Yeah yeah, yeah.
48:33.50
Florence
Well I think that's what happens with the walking and with the paddling you know when you're walking. It's also bilateral when you're paddling. It's bilateral. Um I think you're right? It's like it's engaging and connecting different parts of your brain. Ah and and in some ways it makes sense to me that.
48:48.44
talknerdy
E.
48:53.29
Florence
That the emdr is doing the same thing except for sitting still.
48:54.82
talknerdy
Right? right? except that there's you know, um, there's a practitioner with with you which in and of itself is very beneficial right? because there's a safety in healing with an expert. There's a safety in healing with somebody who you knew was trained and is licensed and is.
49:01.73
Florence
That's right, That's right? Yeah, absolutely.
49:11.85
talknerdy
You know, following all of the important protocols and who has read all of the books and and can help you if you have a panic attack right? there in the room can help you if you really start to experience some deep existential um angst or or um crisis Yeah, and did you have.
49:17.74
Florence
And yeah enough.
49:26.88
Florence
That's right.
49:29.80
talknerdy
That ever throughout this whole process like did you find that your heartbreak was ever bordering on you know, latent mental illness any pathology that was coming out or were you like you know this is probably the exact same experience that most everybody goes through.
49:45.75
Florence
You know I did have um things like heart racing palpitations I had sort of eye twitching. Um those to me felt like you know, sort of panic attacks or inci and panic. Theres there was very high anxiety. You know at times. Um.
49:49.46
talknerdy
E.
49:57.70
talknerdy
Right? Like worrisome. Yeah yeah, did you find that in your life. You tend towards a more anxious reaction to stressors anyway. But it never quite got that bad.
50:04.88
Florence
Yeah.
50:11.51
Florence
You know I never thought of myself that way as struggling with anxiety until I went through this process and and all of a sudden I became a very anxious person and I talked about this with my therapist I said um you know God am I A really anxious person right now.
50:15.16
talknerdy
Um, interesting right.
50:31.41
Florence
Or am I an anxious person. Maybe I am and I didn't know it and she said well you know you're circumstantially anxious like there's a reason you're anxious right now but I actually think I probably am an anxious person and I just didn't really know it. You know I had sort of these other um, pretty effective ways.
50:35.56
talknerdy
Yeah.
50:49.55
talknerdy
Right? and.
50:50.10
Florence
Of coping with it to the point where I didn't even know like I was you know self-medicating. Um.
50:54.30
talknerdy
Yeah I mean and I think most people who have insight most people who are highly motivated who have a lot of success in their careers who are um, you know have a lot of that kind of Post-traumatic resilience that is just.. It's like you have you carry these skills without even knowing it right? You have all these coping mechanisms in your life that help you deal with yep yep until the until the external circumstances are so great that that sub subthreshold you know your threshold's different now.
51:13.14
Florence
That's right, yeah until they don't work of all of a sudden right.
51:25.82
Florence
That's right? yeah.
51:26.84
talknerdy
and and I think that that's probably 1 of the the best things that therapeutically can be beneficial is just the validation and the normalization of like I'm having a normal reaction to an abnormal situation. Mm.
51:37.85
Florence
Right? And that's very helpful. It gives you a sense of perspective. Um, but also I'm I'm I'm glad that I do know that actually maybe I am an anxious person. Um, you know it gives me a little more self-knowledge you know to to manage I think.
51:43.98
talknerdy
Yeah, and that. Right? right.
51:54.80
talknerdy
Yeah, and I think a lot of it. They're labels right? and these are these are constructs that are designed by people that are we work very hard to try and have these like particular cutoffs. But of course to some extent. There's an arbitrariness to them and so you may not be.
51:55.97
Florence
Some situations.
52:13.36
talknerdy
Diagnosable with an anxiety disorder but you may still tend towards a more anxious reaction to things and yeah, it's just insight right? first comes insight then comes action. Um, yeah.
52:17.84
Florence
Right? And once you know that you can you know, develop more so more tools in your toolkit. Um I mean I have learned so much about myself through this process. You know, ah in terms of my mental health but you know. Also in terms of sort of core identity. Um in terms of my values and that's been the kind of beautiful and redemptive part of heartbreak that there is this journey of self-discovery.
52:36.12
talknerdy
Me here.
52:47.47
talknerdy
Oh I love that and you know I'm I'm curious. How much do you resonate or identify with that sort of very pithy adage that the only way out is through like this wasn't an overnight process for you. You had to feel it.
53:01.33
Florence
It wasn't absolutely I identify with that wholly completely and I also came to feel like there is no tidy resolution. You know there's you know people say oh I want Closure I want closure. Um, understandable. But.
53:12.86
talknerdy
E.
53:20.97
Florence
You know, expect that you're only going to get maybe partial closure and so I had this at 1 point you know after talking to a lot of experts on this and psychologists I had this sort of realization that rather than seeking closure what I needed to seek was a sense of comfort with.
53:38.90
talknerdy
Um, yeah, yeah, sort of ah okayness with the unknown okayness with the gray and the ambivalence and the and the I don't Yeah, it's it and somebody who's like really.
53:39.17
Florence
Not having closure. Yeah.
53:46.37
Florence
That's right, That's right I Someone who didn't need the closure quite so much.
53:57.85
talknerdy
Okay, with where you are now like I think a lot of times the quote closure comes from a desperate need to understand the mindset of the other you know what? I mean like I need to know why this happened why did he do this or why are they thinking that and how could they do this to me.
54:05.39
Florence
Maybe they thinking like what happened what happened what happened that that makes sense to me but but.
54:16.14
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, but but you know what is your sort of purpose. What is your mission. What is your experience where do you find joy and awe. Um, you know in some ways that is kind of it's an ongoing closure I Guess it's a closure in action.
54:31.66
Florence
Yeah, absolutely I mean that's what life is right? It's an ah and and ah amazingly I think learning about this and sort of developing this comfort level was incredibly helpful when the pandemic hit because all of a sudden We were collectively facing.
54:35.84
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
54:43.00
talknerdy
Yeah, oh yeah.
54:50.33
Florence
You know this intense uncertainty um, unpredictable unpredictability. Um, nobody knew it was happening. Everybody felt anxious and I was like you know this is nothing veryar break like I I I can totally do this.
54:59.81
talknerdy
Yeah, you know and you know it. It's sort of it. It just triggers in me this um, return that I often take in Therapy. To the serenity prayer and it's funny because I'm not I'm not religious I'm quite secular and so you know depending on the patients I'm working with sometimes I'd like to God out of the equation completely. But if they themselves are religious. We might include it. Whatever to me? It's all the same. Um, but the idea of sort of. Affecting change where you can being empowered feeling a strong sense of of you know, ah solution focused approach where there is a solution to be made sitting sitting with equanimity where you.
55:44.20
Florence
Right.
55:50.44
talknerdy
Literally have no control over the situation where it is completely beyond your control and of course having the wisdom to know the difference which is the hard part. Ah.
55:57.55
Florence
It is a hard part I mean it's all hard. It's all hard. It's all a journey. You're not you know there's no sort of destination. You know you need to work on these things all the time but I feel like I have more skills now and more insight.
56:06.42
talknerdy
A he. So. So do you feel you know I think probably the big and hard question is do you feel different now than you do I mean obviously you feel different now but are you better for it. Do you still sometimes wish that you were. Back in that relationship. Are you hopeful to you know, set your own path kind of where do you where do you find yourself today right.
56:32.72
Florence
Yeah, well you know it's not um, it's not a sort of consistent state right? There's There's no linear kind of path here. There are moments where you sort of have regrets and sadness and yearning and craving still. But. Overall I would say 100% I feel like I am a different person and I feel like I'm a better person I feel like I am more open to feelings I feel like I'm more present for the people in my life.
56:56.69
talknerdy
M.
57:11.91
Florence
Feel like I'm more empathetic I feel like I'm a better listener I feel like I have a greater capacity for love than I did before this experience.
57:16.45
talknerdy
Ah, oh it just it really resonates this kind of um, this very existential view that sort of without loss. You really don't fully understand. Love you know without um without that.
57:29.54
Florence
Um, yeah.
57:34.21
talknerdy
Equal and opposite force. It's very hard to really recognize the depths of your capabilities and the depths of your experience.
57:40.72
Florence
Yeah I think I think it just we're not always very well taught how to be emotionally intelligent and that it takes something like this you know to sort of tear down the walls to be like.
57:47.66
talknerdy
Oh for sure. Yeah.
57:54.22
talknerdy
If if you have this sort of um ah self-motivation and wherewithal to want to learn from it and to want to grow from it because sadly something like this can also be incredibly detrimental to somebody who doesn't have either the capacity.
58:07.22
Florence
Yeah.
58:13.21
talknerdy
Or the privilege or the support to be able to you know, go through a personal journey like this for some people who are really struggling with underlying mental illness or like we said, don't don't have a lot of social support. Um, don't have a lot of resources. This can be the straw.
58:14.76
Florence
When was.
58:21.15
Florence
Right? right? Yeah and I think some people don't recover from heartbreak and I I just didn't know when I started this journey. You know if I was going to be 1 of those people or not.
58:31.90
talknerdy
That breaks the camels back. Yeah, exactly.
58:38.88
talknerdy
But you did you have.
58:41.60
Florence
Um, but it it I did and it and it really motivated me knowing that I that I wanted to tell myself a story in which I could be you know the agent of my own future.
58:51.60
talknerdy
Ah I love it and so I'm going to close with my final 2 questions. But before I dive into those last question for you about your journey about the book and about where you're at now who do you recommend read about this like where in there you know obviously the generally curious sure. But if somebody is. Experienccing heartbreak. Should they read this book during that acute phase should they read it as their they should. Okay, yeah.
59:13.00
Florence
Yeah, absolutely I think so I think so yeah I mean I think there's a lot here that will resonate with someone who's in the Throes of pain and I think there are a lot of hopeful messages in the book.
59:21.66
talknerdy
Yeah.
59:28.34
Florence
So you know while there are some bad statistics some discouraging statistics about health and about you know divorce people I think ultimately there's a lot of hope here.
59:36.88
talknerdy
Love it. Well gosh florence I know I've already kept you a couple minutes longer than I said I would but I was hoping you would share with us your insights on on my closing 2 questions that I ask everybody who comes on the show. They're kind of big picture questions you ready for them all right? so.
59:47.71
Florence
Okay, okay, yep.
59:54.30
talknerdy
I Want you to think in whatever context is relevant to you right? now you know it could be um, something you're dealing with in your life. It could be very personal but it could also be community global Hell Cosmic number one. What is the thing That's keeping you up the most at night right now. The thing you're most concerned about worried about maybe even feeling a bit you know, pessimistic or cynical about and then on the flip side of that to kind of lighten things Up. Um.
01:00:19.20
Florence
Like yeah, um, yeah I mean I would say right now like a lot of people I have pretty acute distress about the state of democracy.
01:00:21.44
talknerdy
Where are you finding your hope your optimism. What are you truly authentically looking forward to.
01:00:34.58
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
01:00:37.33
Florence
Um, you know and and sort of our capacity to live together in a diverse society in a way that you know protects. Everyone's rights and individuality and I worry about that I worry about our ability to live through our divisions.
01:00:48.16
talknerdy
Me he.
01:00:57.50
Florence
Um, but I would I would say I get the most hope right now from my children and other young people who are so politically engaged. Um and so knowledgeable and they care so much that I feel like. You know if anyone can pull us out of these holes that we're In. It's going to be this emerging generation.
01:01:20.28
talknerdy
Yeah here here? Well everyone the book is heartbreak a personal and scientific journey by Florence Williams Florence thank you so much for spending the time with us today.
01:01:32.44
Florence
Thank you carrots for such a pleasure.
01:01:36.00
talknerdy
And everyone listening. Thank you for coming back week after week I'm really looking forward to the next time we all get together to talk nerdy.
