Dream Science w/ Sidarta Ribeiro
In this episode of Talk Nerdy, Cara is joined by Dr. Sidarta Ribeiro, professor of neuroscience and founder of the Brain Institute at the Federal University of Rio Grande do Norte in Natal, Brazil. They talk about his new book, "The Oracle of Night: The History and Science of Dreams." Topics include what dreaming is (and isn't), why we dream, and what contemporary neuroscience, biochemistry, and genetics can tell us about this ancient evolutionary experience.
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00:00.00
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, it's recording.
00:00.93
talknerdy
Great Well sirat that thank you so much for joining me today I am really excited to talk about your book when it came across my desk I was like oh my gosh This is a topic that it's fascinating to me as somebody who.
00:06.59
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
00:18.88
talknerdy
Has a background in neuroscience. So my master's was in neuroscience. But then now I'm working towards a Ph D in clinical psychology. So of course dreaming is something that has I think possessed the imagination um imagination of psychologists and clients for um, since before it was a field. Um.
00:20.35
Sidarta Ribeiro
Are e.
00:34.48
Sidarta Ribeiro
E.
00:37.65
talknerdy
But at the same time I am also kind of a pretty firm skeptic I'm I'm very much a believer in evidence based assessments and interventions and I feel like as much as there's some incredible science about sleep and dreams. There's also a lot of pseudoscience out there.
00:51.97
Sidarta Ribeiro
E E E e.
00:55.79
talknerdy
And so I'm super thrilled to sort of get to the bottom of this and I think the first maybe most important question is not why do we dream. But what is a dream like before we do anything we should probably define what dreaming is.
01:06.35
Sidarta Ribeiro
Absolutely Well So from the biological point of view dreams reflect the passage of electrical activity through a mesh of neurons that represent experiences that are that represent memories right. So you could say that dreams are basically the reactivation of of pieces and bits of past memories. But of course there is a logic to that. There's a lot of randomness to it and we could talk about the neurochemical reasons and the Neuro anatomical reasons Why there's some randomness.
01:35.89
talknerdy
E.
01:45.69
Sidarta Ribeiro
To it. But there's also a lot of a lot of a lot of there's ah, there's there's There's the how can I say this better. There's a lot of determination of the contents of a dream based on what the person is actually living.
02:03.41
talknerdy
Ok.
02:05.30
Sidarta Ribeiro
Right? And this is this is where we we bridge with depth psychology let's say Freud and Jung in particular which defended one hundred and twenty years ago that dreams are not meaningless. The dreams have a meaning and this meaning is centered around the person that is having the dream and it has to do with its with his or her. Context. So so there's activation that that causes the experience of of having a dream is guided by desires and fears and this is mediatated by dopamine and a specific neurotransmitter so we can bridge the biological and the psychological levels. But but evidently not try to reduce one to the other. So when I say that the dream from the biological point of view is the passage of electrical activity that is guided by dopamine here and there according to desire and fear this is not to reduce the actual experience of having a dream which is actually much more than that.
02:57.93
talknerdy
Um, right? Yeah I think you know I see some parallels with what you're saying between how we define thought how we define cognition or even how we define emotion like cognitive psychologists for a very long time have you use sort of metaphor.
02:59.62
Sidarta Ribeiro
Right? Because there there are many many layers to it.
03:05.29
Sidarta Ribeiro
A e.
03:15.60
talknerdy
And different um constructs to be able to describe these things neuroscientists have said you know this is the emergent property of these specific cells and and these specific pathways and this is what's happening but neither of those things tell the whole story because both of those things are happening at the same time.
03:20.38
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, a mean here right? on. Yeah, exactly.
03:34.30
talknerdy
And and so you know this this idea of memory being an important um component I think is probably at 1 time making people who are driving in their cars listening to this conversation shake their heads vehemently up and down. Yes, yes, it's weird how much there are people in my dreams who I know personally.
03:50.51
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, a he he.
03:52.80
talknerdy
But then there's the there's the bizarreness and the randomness. So. It's kind of like there's a memory.. It's guided by things we know things that as you mentioned are personally contextual. But. Boy Howdy is it not fantastic like people are losing their teeth in their dreams and they're flying and my mom was in it but my mom looked kind of like this other lady I used to know and and so it's much more than just replaying memories.
04:03.24
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, he exactly what baffles us and sometimes makes it impossible to make sense of a dream. Is this hyperassociativeness right? So people change places change think things are quite layle. Um, this has to do as I said before with some very specific molecular and anatomical reasons for example during.
04:28.39
talknerdy
E.
04:38.86
Sidarta Ribeiro
Rapid eye movement sleep which is the phase of sleep in which we have the most dreaming going on. We have negligible zero actually levels of noreppenephrine being released in the brain and norinerine and the fact that it's brought to 0 has profound consequences in how electal activity.
04:48.74
talknerdy
Oh interesting.
04:57.76
Sidarta Ribeiro
Spreads through the cor to through the neuronal mesh So when when Noradrenaline norepinenephrine the same molecule Actually when when this Neurot Transsmitter is present. Um the activity tends to follow the most preferred pathways when it's absent. It's freer it. It may spill.
04:58.53
talknerdy
Er.
05:15.90
Sidarta Ribeiro
To to pathways that are not commonly used and this will they will explain why having a lot of Rem sleep can help creativity can help find remote associates can help um understand anagrams this kind of stuff. There's also anatomical reason So during Rapid I move and sleep.
05:28.36
talknerdy
E.
05:35.75
Sidarta Ribeiro
Most of our prefrontal cortex is deactivated not all of it. But most of it and this is the part of the brain that we use to to make decisions to inhibit behaviors that are not adaptive that are not appropriate to um, ah contain impulses.
05:40.90
talknerdy
Okay.
05:52.26
talknerdy
Right? It's our yeah yeah.
05:54.73
Sidarta Ribeiro
Basically what we call exact functions and and to have shortterm memory and and keep track of things and keep track of the coherence of things So when when these brain areas are deactivated. The consequence is that in dreams anything goes in in dreams. Nothing really surprises you. But we also don't have the feeling in regular dreams of course this could be different in lucid dreaming but in regular dreaming We don't have the feel that we are really you know, choosing the the the path things are happening to the dreamer right? And and there's a certain level of agency but not much.
06:27.68
talknerdy
Okay, okay, so you know I'm I'm I'm interested kind of going back to the the Norepnephrine Phenomenon. So That's obviously a measurable difference between when somebody's in Rem sleep and somebody's not you can see you can measure that there is. Less or even know norepinephrine being sort of released into these synapses. Um, this is quite curious to me because the content of dreams very often is stressful very often. It's nightmarish. Um, and people very often describe experiencing panic.
06:54.67
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, yes, he.
07:03.70
talknerdy
Waking up from a dream sweaty feeling quite panicked or or you know running from ah a predator in a dream something like that and it's so curious to me that there would be none of this sort of norepinephrine neurotransmitter. Come Yeah, ah.
07:08.72
Sidarta Ribeiro
The.
07:19.62
talknerdy
Ah, being released during these during this content. Ah yes, yes, right.
07:20.59
Sidarta Ribeiro
But there's dopamine and there's acetycoline so there are other neurotransmitters right? Which will you know and and you know do their their thing. Um I think what for for for us. It's hard to make sense of most dreams because we are not living in anything like the conditions.
07:32.90
talknerdy
E.
07:39.68
Sidarta Ribeiro
Ah, in which dreaming evolved over over two hundred million years in the mammalian lineage um in our mammalian ancestors and that eventually became human dreaming human dreaming is quite special and very different from from regular mammalian dreaming because we can share dreams.
07:55.56
talknerdy
Right.
07:57.93
Sidarta Ribeiro
We have rapid eye movement sleep just like other mammals and they're very likely dreaming as well. But we can share our dream So this creates culture this creates you know, social action this creates I have a dream kind of situations which other animals cannot have but.
08:08.86
talknerdy
Yeah.
08:13.19
Sidarta Ribeiro
The essence of the the state that is going on in our brains is quite similar to what's going on in in our pets in cats and dogs the essence of Rapid I move in sleep is is is pretty much the same and and it will create a situation in which memories are reactivated but they are reactivated according to the emotions they provoked.
08:30.99
talknerdy
E.
08:32.84
Sidarta Ribeiro
And because there is this neurochemical change that allows the activity to be freer and there's also less prefrontal inhibition than that memories that. Represents 1 thing can become associated with another thing and another thing and in us humans this becomes metaphors allegories. You know you know, Tif that actually represents something else now this doesn't mean that we cannot have dreams that are completely literal that are completely.
08:55.25
talknerdy
Right. B u.
09:02.74
Sidarta Ribeiro
Especially in in the case of trauma people that go to war people that are attacked by wild animals people that are attacked by people. They develop memories that are very strong very negative at that and that surface again during especially during rapid eye movement sleep as.
09:21.23
talknerdy
Right? yeah.
09:21.31
Sidarta Ribeiro
Terrible nightmares repetitive nightmares actually that actually need treatment but this this makes us think that to to understand what dreams are we need to first understand how they evolved and they evolved as and this is the what I propose in in this book the oracle of night is that they evolved as a way. Based on yesterday try to simulate tomorrow come up with possible futures and and how to deal with that and in the natural world. This basically means trying to feed yourself and not to become somebody else's food and mate. Right? So with those 3 major Let's say darwinian imperatives to to kill something to eat not to to be killed and to to have offspring so this is probably the the backbone of what dreaming is about.
10:07.41
talknerdy
Okay, so so the hypothesis here is that we must remember integrate dig deep into sort of these um these experiences that have been laid down and then to some extent play manipulate.
10:14.69
Sidarta Ribeiro
Are.
10:24.29
talknerdy
Um, look for new kind of connections between these memories and and previous knowledge in an effort to to plan in an effort to prepare for future experiences. Um.
10:32.41
Sidarta Ribeiro
exactly exactly exactly I give you a very simple example when I was in grad school I tell it in my book when I was in grad school I used to work ah in the field center that was 2 hours away from my my University Rockefeller University New York
10:49.95
talknerdy
E.
10:52.00
Sidarta Ribeiro
Ah, and and one day I signed up for the car to drive to the field center and I got there at 7 am and the car wasn't there and I was really angry so I had a colleague that hadn't returned the car and he didn't tell me so it ruined my experimental day and I was really angry and during the day I was rehearsing.
11:02.58
talknerdy
A.
11:11.50
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, ah meeting him when he finally came back and telling him how angry I was and so I was you know? yes you know Gru grumpy and like and you know so ah and I didn't really think much of his response I was thinking of my my actions right.
11:14.10
talknerdy
Right? Kind of going over what you were going to say and how you were going to say it a yeah. Ah.
11:28.80
talknerdy
Yeah.
11:30.74
Sidarta Ribeiro
Because he was just wrong. Then I go to sleep and I get this I have this nightmare in which I confront him in very strong words and he beats me up just like that and and in real life. He is way stronger and taller than me.
11:37.94
talknerdy
Ah, yeah.
11:46.72
Sidarta Ribeiro
So when I woke up in the morning I was stressed and I was like oh my God if I approach him. So so harshly he will he you know at least I didn't I don't know if you would you know, beat me up. But I mean that's that's what would happen in the natural world right? if you come right? sure for sure for sure.
11:58.42
talknerdy
Right? If he did beat you up. He would win. Yeah.
12:04.75
Sidarta Ribeiro
And so it was this possible future that I wanted to avoid and that I became conscious of this and this this thought hadn't crossed my mind but it was actually quite quite obvious thing in a world of as you said before of praise and predators you know and confrontations that are quite harsh So when I finally met him.
12:05.99
talknerdy
And Write. You.
12:21.55
Sidarta Ribeiro
Again I said I was quite polite and he was quite polite and he was fine. This is just an example of a practical thing in your life. So we have a challenge you have a problem dreams are very good at at representing those problems. They're not very good at representing problems when you have a thousand little problems.
12:37.19
talknerdy
Right.
12:39.20
Sidarta Ribeiro
Because this is not how they didn't evolve in a situation of a thousand little problems they evolved in a situation of 3 major problems to kill not to die into? Yes, exactly? yeah.
12:43.59
talknerdy
Right? Something that's almost more life or death. Yeah, yeah, and you know what's funny is that of course me being the psychotherapist that I am I'm sitting here thinking. Okay this is so interesting and you know, kind of revolutionary that in some ways. Ah.
12:56.47
Sidarta Ribeiro
What point.
13:01.72
talknerdy
Understanding this knowing this ah theorizing this can be quite beneficial to an individual who struggles with anxiety and struggles with catastrophization who lies in bed at night paralyzed By. You know what? Ifs and and rehearsing all of these you know, terrible potential outcomes and cannot sleep that you know your mind is going to do this for you. Your mind is going to work these things out for you during these periods of of ah unconsciousness and.
13:16.65
Sidarta Ribeiro
E He he? Yes yes.
13:32.17
talknerdy
And you so it's almost like maladaptive to lie there and do it in a way that's not integrated.
13:34.70
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, yes, we need to embrace the the healing power of the unconscious in ah in a very concrete manner in a very concrete manner. There's there experiments for example from from Bob Stickles Laboratory in Harvard erring wamsley.
13:40.39
talknerdy
Yeah, and.
13:53.34
Sidarta Ribeiro
Leading that published what ten eleven years ago showing that when people well the experience is like this they they play a video game that is basically navigating a maze and so it's spatial learning then they go to sleep or they stay awake different groups and.
14:03.74
talknerdy
E.
14:12.73
Sidarta Ribeiro
After some time they are asked. Did you think about the game or not in the case of in the case of the people that were awake or in the case of the people that went to sleep. Did you dream about the game or not and what they found is that the people that stayed awake irrespective of whether they were thinking about the game or not they didn't learn much. They.
14:17.42
talknerdy
E.
14:29.50
talknerdy
Right.
14:30.96
Sidarta Ribeiro
Got like very marginal improvements but ah among the people that had access to sleep those that didn't dream about the game didn't get benefits but those that had dreams about the game got a huge benefits. So what this expert show published in current biology. Very good science. Ah.
14:42.80
talknerdy
How interesting.
14:49.54
Sidarta Ribeiro
It shows that when you dream about a task you become better at the task but that was that didn't happen by thinking consciously about it all the time and obsessing and suffering but it it happened ah allowing to allowing the the body to rest and allowing the brain to do its work.
15:02.20
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah, and so there's a 2 kind of pronged thing happening here one you need the sort of integration of going to sleep. You need the ability for your your brain to sort of make connections that fly in the face of your conscious sort of cognitions and.
15:09.76
Sidarta Ribeiro
E.
15:21.41
talknerdy
And and sort of like creatively integrate but you also do it sounds like need for the topic to be at least salient enough for you to dream about it.
15:28.78
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, yes, totally if it doesn't produce emotions. It's not gonna be there. It has to it has to do with with the negative and positive evaluation of everything that we make and that's why when we're living a ah more monotonous situation in life with.
15:34.50
talknerdy
Right? Write write write.
15:48.26
Sidarta Ribeiro
With you know, small challenges and sometimes we get anxious about small things right? and it's a problem but but they do not have the same impact in your life. So I give you let me go back to some you know to to my own experience because I think it it may help here.
15:51.85
talknerdy
Absolutely yeah.
15:59.34
talknerdy
E.
16:05.20
Sidarta Ribeiro
I I study sleep and and dreams and have been doing it for many many many years but over the course of these years as I went say from my 30 s to what now 50 I've been dreaming less and less and remembering less and less and I noticed it very strong. It's very obvious to me and I said oh it's because I'm so.
16:17.70
talknerdy
So.
16:24.36
Sidarta Ribeiro
Sleeping too late So I sleep you know earlier and it's better, but not the same as when I was a teenager then I say well it's because I I drank wine before going to bed and alcohol Decreases R Rem sleep. So ah, you know I avoid that and I gets better but you know many things that I adjusted in my routine.
16:27.83
talknerdy
Who.
16:35.33
talknerdy
M.
16:43.43
Sidarta Ribeiro
When I do my physical exercise those things they help a lot. Okay, but they but but still even after adjusting for all that I didn't get back to the same rich ah explosions explosive experience of dreaming when when I was younger and I thought of I I was starting to believe that this was the.
16:58.84
talknerdy
Spray.
17:03.41
Sidarta Ribeiro
You know like that this couldn't be changed and just last ah vacations in the last vacations I went ah camping for five days in a very wild place.
17:03.99
talknerdy
E.
17:15.38
talknerdy
Okay.
17:17.71
Sidarta Ribeiro
In forests and cliffs and mountains and you know, no electrical lights. You know, no you know, really really away from everything and in those five days I was dreaming like an animal I was really really dreaming. Ah it was it was.
17:27.60
talknerdy
Um, because you weren't there. You weren't very safe where you were. Right? Exact you may have been safe. But yeah, you had the emotional experience of a lack of safety. Um.
17:36.20
Sidarta Ribeiro
It was. It didn't feel safe. It. It was it was it yes, exactly exactly? yeah now. In fact, he was quite safe but I mean it was it was it was several days of of you know you know having. Ah, very little comfort around me and and having to walk very for for for long miles and having to and many things that are way closer to the natural world than my regular life and and during those days even though I have a thousand little problems I only really had 1 or 2 or three problems right.
17:59.54
talknerdy
Write.
18:06.40
talknerdy
Stay warm. Try not to get eaten. Don't die in your sleep. Yeah yeah.
18:09.23
Sidarta Ribeiro
I Stay war Exactly don't don't don't twist your ankle this kind of stuff and so for me it was It was a revelation in fact because I realized that the the main reason why the dream experience gets impoverished has to do with the adaptation.
18:17.87
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
18:28.20
Sidarta Ribeiro
And this adaptation and as you say as you said before it has to do with emotions if you are if you're risking your life because you're expecting a huge reward and it may not come or because you're you're afraid something really bad will happen dreams will will.
18:28.31
talknerdy
Um, yeah.
18:45.22
Sidarta Ribeiro
Talk about that they will image that they will they will they will provide ah food for thoughts. But if you're having a life that is you know, just a negotiation of small problems that you kind of already have solved and if it's very stable. The chances that you're going to have a very strong dream that that's very easy to interpret. Very slim. You're going to have those dreams that are a mix of things and you can sort the pieces of you say oh this thing has to do with that. This thing is I saw that person yesterday. Oh this is because I had this emotion this emotional is associated with that person from my childhood but but overall the whole dream does not have a cohesive unity.
19:18.32
talknerdy
Right? right? and this is where you'll see kind of like pieces of a television series that you may have been watching integrating into your dream or yeah, yeah, whereas whereas you're right? Whether it's life or death.
19:20.39
Sidarta Ribeiro
It's just a collection of little problems.
19:25.35
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, yeah, like why am I dreaming about this.
19:35.39
talknerdy
Or it simply has the valence of life or death. So even something like I'm on the brink of my wedding or I'm on the brink of my child being born or which actually can be life or death or even you know I'm I've been up for this promotion and tomorrow's the day that I find out if I got it. These are big deal things. Yeah.
19:36.48
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, even yes, yes, yes, yes, these are big 2 things. Yes exams. Yes.
19:54.58
talknerdy
Yeah, exams. Oh my gosh. Ah oh god.
19:55.89
Sidarta Ribeiro
Ah, medical exams ah tests right? I mean those are like classical dreams right? You you know everybody had dreams in which you know you fail at the exam or you or you know where you get a bad medical exam this kind of stuff and these are simulations of possible futures.
20:08.66
talknerdy
Um, I still put these dreams. Yeah I still like well now I'm back in school but I'm sort of I'm all but dissertation now. So it's not like I'm taking tests anymore anything but you know even before I went back to to do my Ph D you know later in life I would have dreams.
20:15.68
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, but.
20:26.74
talknerdy
Like my stress dreams were still those I show up to get my you know Diploma and they say oh you you never took that 1 class you had to take and and until you take that we're not going to let you graduate and and it was so bizarre because those stakes weren't there in my life. But I think that they had integrated so much as a representation of sort of.
20:32.68
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:46.32
talknerdy
Ah, lack of accomplishment or working so hard and not quite reaching the finish line that they were yeah they had become the sort of archetype for me of that because Academia was such a big part of my life.
20:47.51
Sidarta Ribeiro
Who Absolutely absolutely.
20:57.36
Sidarta Ribeiro
And and I think that in our world I mean we are usually we' not afraid of being attacked by a lion right? but but but but but but metaphorically in in Academia many times you feel like you're going to be eaten by a line. Ah.
21:03.89
talknerdy
Right? Yeah I never have those kinds of dreams. Yeah yeah, and I think interestingly going back speaking of academia going back to what you were talking about about the power of. Having your rem sleep and integrating all of these ideas and making new connections and sort of evoking creative processing. Um, if you're listening college students right now. What this means is do not stay up all night in cram. There is a certain point where you need to go to sleep because you will actually do better.
21:31.19
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, yes, yes, but this has been shown. This is this is facts right? I mean we know that we know for a fact that if you cram you will not First of all, you won't have the performance you want to have.
21:41.38
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
21:50.60
Sidarta Ribeiro
And second and most importantly, this is going to be dismal down the road. This is the most important thing is maybe you can even ace that test you know after staying sleep-drived overnight. But then one year later two years later nothing will remain and and and we should be focused on long-term learning not on short-term learning.
21:52.62
talknerdy
Right? right.
22:07.45
talknerdy
Right.
22:09.88
Sidarta Ribeiro
It's very clear and not just for dreaming. Ah I mean sleep is the basis of of good health if people that people that have little sleep that just stay up late and and with screens on all the time and wake up early. They are sacrificing years of their life. They're sacrificing their well being there. We're talking everything from. Cognitive problems and emotional processing problems in the short term to um, ah you know depression diabetes obesity cardiovascular problems and even down the road alzheimer's disease. So not to have enough sleep is a really really bad idea and if you don't have enough sleep on top of that. You won't have dreaming because most of the dreaming happens in the second half of the night and you have to get there. Yeah yeah, you have some dreaming in the early phases of the night but this is the so-called during the hypnagogic states right? The the entrance to sleep has has visual experiences.
22:48.43
talknerdy
Um, and you have to get there. You have to go through the phases to get there. Yeah yeah.
23:05.79
Sidarta Ribeiro
Has short dreams but they're very short. They're not complex stories. They become complex after you, you slept say three four hours of solid sleep. So most people when they are doing all those things that I mentioned having alcohol late at night having ah. Cannabis late at night having using sleep pills or antidepressants all those things will impair one way or another rem sleep or and the ability to recall dreams.
23:31.32
talknerdy
So okay, that's that's I'm gonna I'm gonna put a pin in what you just said about antidepressants because that's an interesting thing I Want to follow up on but I want to ask from a personal perspective I have been trying to.
23:39.73
Sidarta Ribeiro
The.
23:43.33
talknerdy
You know throughout the pandemic and difficulty with you know, kind of I don't know just like self-efficacy and all the things that many people are dealing with with like a lack of social interaction. Um I live alone and I was starting to feel very like my health was was becoming a distant thing from me and so what are some of the changes I can make to my routine.
23:48.94
Sidarta Ribeiro
You did it.
23:56.99
Sidarta Ribeiro
E.
24:02.00
talknerdy
And 1 of the big things that I did is I went back to a previous um approach that I had used and I've now really integrated it and it's become part of my routine. So um, at at the time when it's when it's time for me to get ready for bed. Um I take my phone and I put it in my office and I plug it in.
24:08.41
Sidarta Ribeiro
He. Um, to.
24:18.51
talknerdy
And then I go to my bedroom. You know I brush my teeth I wash my face I'll do all that and then when I get into bed I Journal I meditate and then I read um right now I'm reading the emperor of all maladies by Siddartha Mukurji not be that he.
24:25.73
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, Aha Aha Yes, who.
24:37.65
talknerdy
Um, and I I you know, kind of like read until I'm starting to get tired or until the the time at night when I want to go to sleep every night. So usually I do all this an hour before I need to be asleep. Um, and then I turn everything off you know and and.
24:51.17
Sidarta Ribeiro
Are you.
24:56.96
talknerdy
My head hits the pillow and I don't read on a screen I read a physical book um with like soft light like an orange-ish light. Um and this has been just like immensely helpful to me. It's helped me with my sleep ah hygiene. It's helped me with you know, just like feeling like I'm in a good place and I'm curious is this.
24:58.33
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um I.
25:05.76
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, is here.
25:12.60
Sidarta Ribeiro
This is.
25:16.72
talknerdy
Type of like nighttime hygiene something that is preferential for dreaming because I never thought about dreams as part of the equation before. Okay, okay yeah.
25:19.20
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, absolutely absolutely yes I mean you could add some things to it like you could you could you could you could make some auto suggestion before really going to sleep in which you you. You you say I will have a dream I will remember it I will bring it with me I will report this kind of stuff makes a big difference and and in many different cultures in the ancient egypt or in ancient greece and nowadays among native american groups from from Alaska to to Patagonia.
25:37.81
talknerdy
Oh.
25:52.75
talknerdy
E.
25:54.57
Sidarta Ribeiro
All over the the world. In fact, aboriginal populations will go towards dreaming with intention. Not just we we westerners tend to say well you know, um I had a dream. The dream is something that happens to you and in many of those cultures. They actually rather than being.
26:00.82
talknerdy
Um, da.
26:06.61
talknerdy
Right? It's past it if.
26:13.16
Sidarta Ribeiro
Hunted by the dream they hunt the dream they go for they try to to catch the dream and and and propitiate dreams that for example, will bring diagnosis or indications of treatment and so on and new ideas and etc. So all those things can be done. Of course if people are more religious ah prone they can do it using their.
26:13.22
talknerdy
How poor.
26:32.88
Sidarta Ribeiro
Religion symbols or entities or whatever if they are you know atheistic naturalistic people science orientented they can do it thinking of auto suggestion and and just prompting certain kinds of experiences during sleep that will allow you to wake up at whatever 6 7 eight Zero a m and say oh. I have this huge experience to report to myself first and then and then comes this very critical moment which is waking up this is that this is really the most critical thing because if you wake up and you move and you talk and you watch anything on screens. You will forget it. You forget it.
26:52.43
talknerdy
Oh very cool.
27:06.55
talknerdy
E.
27:09.42
Sidarta Ribeiro
You know in in in couple of seconds and this is also because when you wake up, you're still coming from a no norpenephrine zone you're coming from not having this neuror transsmitter that allows us to hold memories tight. So We we we need to wake and stay awake a few seconds and try to remember. And then you're going to start having more norepineinephrine coming and then you get this memory and it becomes stronger and then this memory brings what happened right before and then you bring a story because then you have you can You can you know Unravel this whole thread. Um, but if you don't if you move if you talk about something else.
27:34.90
talknerdy
Um, okay yeah.
27:45.49
Sidarta Ribeiro
Then you say I had a dream but I cannot remember anything about it and this is so common.
27:48.23
talknerdy
Um, so I almost never like I don't look at my screens right away I don't move right away and I don't talk right away because I don't you know I live alone? Um, but I I am a snoozer and does it. What is what is hitting the snooze button do for your dreams. Um.
27:51.66
Sidarta Ribeiro
A.Ah well they will. It will give you lots of little dreams right? It will have and eventually will many times the the sound will be incubated in the dream. So you right? you make sense of it in the dream and it becomes something else. But I think it doesn't help the.
28:07.52
talknerdy
Right.
28:12.87
talknerdy
Yeah.
28:20.25
Sidarta Ribeiro
Because we I think let's let's okay, during the night we have 4 to 5 full cycles of sleep. So we have 4 to 5 rapid eye movement sleep episodes and they become longer and longer as the night progresses so if you wake up from the last one.
28:26.51
talknerdy
Right.
28:38.93
Sidarta Ribeiro
You're you're likely to bring a long story. A long dream experience if you're coming from the first one when you you know in the early hours of the night you're going to bring something that is simpler. Okay, so it becomes more complex and longer as the night progresses
28:40.80
talknerdy
E.
28:50.66
talknerdy
Right.
28:55.89
Sidarta Ribeiro
But if you do this What you are actually favoring is dreams of the hypnagogic state hip dreams of going back to sleep then these are less movie and more like ah like a clip or even ah ah, a gif. Ah.
29:04.84
talknerdy
Um, yeah, ah yeah I'm I'm meme dreaming now that's great. Ah, okay, yeah, because I long was curious um about.
29:15.69
Sidarta Ribeiro
Right.
29:22.60
talknerdy
Why and I think that this has happened throughout different stages of my life when there were times where I would think to myself I don't dream and then clearly I realized I probably do dream I Just don't remember them but there have been like like spans of years where I was like I Honestly don't ever remember my dreams.
29:28.42
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, in in yes.
29:38.70
Sidarta Ribeiro
If we stop paying attention to dreams they stop coming to our attention but but the the interesting thing is that they are so they're coming from such a visceral place they like breathing they're like eating they're part of what we are.
29:52.52
talknerdy
In.
29:57.90
Sidarta Ribeiro
We can live without remembering them. But as soon as you pay any attention to them. They become memorable again and and and if if you make all those things that we were talking about. They will come back to your life quite quickly and within one if you try once or twice. It's already going to be there and it gets better and better. So people.
30:02.61
talknerdy
Right.
30:16.47
Sidarta Ribeiro
Many people come to me and say oh I never remember any dream and then once they make some adjustments they they bring 4 to 5 pages ah a night of of dreaming but but what is most for me. What is most amazing is when you start really writing them down and having a long series of of data.
30:23.96
talknerdy
Ah, yeah.
30:33.98
Sidarta Ribeiro
That you start understanding the patterns. It's like solving a puzzle you know after you have many many pieces in place you start seeing what what is still not there. But you start to sense it and it's quite um, it gives a lot of insight into navigating one's own life. You know the challenges the social challenges the emotional challenges, the professional challenges family challenges.
30:47.59
talknerdy
Bright.
30:53.70
Sidarta Ribeiro
They become quite apparent in dreams. Um and and and health situations all that it's quite It's it's there for us. It's ah it's so 1 thing also that I think we need to stress is that everybody that came before us all our ancestors throughout the ages. You know back to to three million years ago they were relying on dreams for a lot of stuff that we basically decided in the past what 500 years or so that we don't need them for for anything anymore. We don't need dreams anymore we we most people in the western world are kind of convinced that they don't need dreaming so dreaming is not important in their.
31:29.18
talknerdy
M.
31:30.80
Sidarta Ribeiro
Personal life. It's not important their social life at workplace schools and this is quite anomalous because dreams were very important. They were the center of the social life of everybody that came before say you know Heid de kaft this you know and and until. Five hundred five hundred years ago in every tradition you looked into dreaming was very important and the fact that we lost track of dreaming that we that we don't talk about dreams anymore and that we don't use dreams to for anything really makes them um, absent from our society.
31:48.58
talknerdy
E e.
32:07.94
Sidarta Ribeiro
And I think there is a consequence to that and the consequences consequences that we are. We're having a hard time imagining the consequences of our actions we live in a society that is very affluent right? We we live in a society that is tremendously affluent. There's.
32:13.91
talknerdy
Um, oh absolutely having foresight. Yeah.
32:24.42
Sidarta Ribeiro
Ah, the the amount of capital that has been accumulated in the past decades not just financial capital but technological Capital Human Capital is tremendous. So why is it that even though we have all that knowledge most people in the world feel that there is no good future ahead I think it's part of the problem is that we are.
32:39.12
talknerdy
Right.
32:44.17
Sidarta Ribeiro
We we ditchit sleep and dreaming and we are we we have health problems and we have social health problems that have to do with the lack of shared dreams.
32:55.84
talknerdy
That's interesting. Yeah, that it's sort of we definitely. We know that in a very sort of western very capitalistic culture such as ours in the US but yours in Brazil you are you know, kind of cross many parts of the globe. Um, that.
33:04.24
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um E yeah.
33:10.74
talknerdy
We make a lot of decisions based on the immediate ramifications and consequences. We don't often think not from a political perspective not from a personal perspective about you know the effects of our decisions.
33:12.19
Sidarta Ribeiro
Over yes.
33:23.27
talknerdy
A year five years ten years one hundred years down the line. It's all about the immediate short term gain and I could see definitely a parallel there. You know this leads me to I think a question that I grapple with as somebody who studies psychology as somebody who has like one foot
33:24.32
Sidarta Ribeiro
Exactly exactly exactly.
33:40.19
talknerdy
Foot in a very existential humanistic tradition and one foot in a very sort of scientific evidence based tradition and that is that you know I am not a psychoanalyst I'm not I'm not psychodynamically oriented at all. So you know very much.
33:45.63
Sidarta Ribeiro
You.
33:51.10
Sidarta Ribeiro
We.
33:55.28
talknerdy
Freud and Jung I feel like there are things I take from it but there are a lot of things I leave behind with it and I have long viewed dreams and dream interpretation similar to the way I view a rorschach ink blot test like it can be very informative for personal introspection for exploration of 1 ne's
33:56.62
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, is he e.
34:06.50
Sidarta Ribeiro
2
34:14.62
talknerdy
Ah, feeling states personality you know, um desires. But the minute that another person tries to come in and say oh this is what that means I think we're venturing into Pseudoscience Territory I Think that's a very dangerous proposition.
34:25.60
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, I hear you my take is somewhere in between because I think the person that can interpret a dream. Best is the dreamer and I agree with you in that. But many times we.
34:32.17
talknerdy
Okay, yeah, yes.
34:41.98
Sidarta Ribeiro
We were much better at doing the interpretation if we can dialogue and we need to dialogue with somebody that exchange ideas with somebody that actually knows our context and this can be a family member. This can be a psychotherapist. This can be a shaman but there has to be a person that is attuned.
34:44.48
talknerdy
Right? right.
34:50.55
talknerdy
O e.
34:58.92
Sidarta Ribeiro
What matters in that person life. So as to be able to offer like likely interpretations. So and and there's no reason why we should stick to 1 dreams are hyper associative and they can have multiple interpretations that are many of them are useful I think it's about whether it's useful or not really um.
35:13.92
talknerdy
Right? right.
35:16.97
Sidarta Ribeiro
And and and sometimes by having a dialogue with people about dreams. We can come up to certain interpretations that wouldn't be that were not even proposed by the person. There's 1 famous example in which Jung has this puzzling dream and comes to his gardener and tells the dream to the gardener and the gardener says I think it means that and that.
35:34.48
talknerdy
Um, yeah, yeah, yes, there's there. There is that creativity and that sort of play that comes that can only come from the Dyad from the sort of intersubjective ah discussion.
35:36.39
Sidarta Ribeiro
And then Jung says no, it doesn't but now I know what it means? ah.
35:48.67
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, yes it oh this is BS this is BS because yeah, yeah, because you cannot you cannot in any way.
35:52.72
talknerdy
But I think I worry when I see the books right? like that say or or like that the it's BS exactly yeah yeah. yeah
36:03.84
Sidarta Ribeiro
Say that a specific symbol means anything if you don't know to whom this is like so no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, but of course of course I'm not saying that we do not share with.
36:04.60
talknerdy
Right? right? Yes, like when your teeth fall out it. It specifically means that you are facing a terrible whatever reacts. It's bullshit. Yeah.
36:19.37
Sidarta Ribeiro
I Believe that part of our unconscious is indeed collective in in the way that Jung proposed and there's actually no epigenetics to support it I think but but to some extent so we share we share many things as you said before I know we are all born and then if you survive you you you at some point will mate and at some point you will.
36:26.90
talknerdy
E.
36:38.42
Sidarta Ribeiro
Age and then a some you know those things will happen in everybody's lives and therefore they are common themes fine with that. But to say that does not not mean that a specific symbol means for sure something for so person. Not at all right for if I if I if I tell her I had a dream about a shark you you may guess it was a nightomere but it doesn't have to be.
36:39.58
talknerdy
Absolutely yeah.
36:48.74
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
36:56.17
talknerdy
Right.
36:57.82
Sidarta Ribeiro
So many ways in which it may not be a nightmare and even if it is a nightmare what kind of nightmare What does it mean if it's completely different from a person that lost money with bitcoin and felt like the sharks ate him or her versus a person that was actually mauled by a shark they won this is gonna be very different but what I.
37:11.82
talknerdy
Right.
37:16.88
Sidarta Ribeiro
What I contend and and where I agree with with with depth psychology in general in my book I I go at length and defending their their legacy The the testable legacy of psychoanalysis and analytical psychology not the untestable stuff.
37:23.20
talknerdy
Ehe.
37:32.12
talknerdy
Bright.
37:33.66
Sidarta Ribeiro
But the testability something that can be quantified and has been in fact because I believe the dreams are meaningful to to say that they are not meaningful but put Science Neuroscience Astray for a long time and it's back and on track in my opinion. Um, and and I even and I want to go back to the horseest horseshack thing which is I didn't.
37:50.72
talknerdy
E.
37:53.58
Sidarta Ribeiro
I I believe that horsha tests can be informative and and help introspection for that person. But I don't believe they can be extrapolated for anything else. But I don't think that's the case but I don't but I don't think it's the same for dreams. For example, there's no way in which mendeleev would have figured out the the periodic table.
38:00.25
talknerdy
Um, agree completely agree. Ah okay.
38:13.44
Sidarta Ribeiro
Through a a horse shut test but but he but the dream actually showed him the pattern and I think or Elias how when he invented the sewing machine that came from a dream that wouldn't come from abstract thoughts. It was very graphic. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
38:13.92
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
38:24.21
talknerdy
Right? Because those are external kind of stimuli that are meant to evoke something in you but this is an internal. It's It's so much more than just than just a thought pattern. It's really a.
38:32.29
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, internal. It's internal. Yes, yes.
38:39.44
talknerdy
How like I'm curious and and I'm not sure how much sort of you feel sort of confident to talk about this but I'm curious about the relationship as somebody who in my twenty s and actually teens had a lot of fun experimenting with different drugs and psychedelics and things like that I think.
38:54.19
Sidarta Ribeiro
The the a.
38:58.51
talknerdy
Back to sort of the way that something like Lsd induces a bit of a neuronal confusion a bit of a neuronal play. Um, how similar or different taking Lsd is from just going to sleep and dreaming.
39:08.98
Sidarta Ribeiro
he he he right excellent question in my book I I actually just I talk about 2 kinds of drugs right? drugs that simulate sleep like sleep pills or indu sleep like melatonin.
39:20.88
talknerdy
Right.
39:26.14
Sidarta Ribeiro
And and they have nothing to do with the dream experience. In fact, most of them lead you to the opposite but there are also drugs drugs that simulate dreams that that are emulate the dream experience such as molecules in Cannabis or psychedelics like lsd.
39:29.71
talknerdy
E.
39:41.70
talknerdy
E.
39:43.87
Sidarta Ribeiro
Ayahuasca and and and so on. Um, so when we look at the literature with those substances we see in its research that has been done the past five years mostly and and and my own lab we I work on this. We publish in this in this field.
39:55.49
talknerdy
E.
40:03.17
Sidarta Ribeiro
These substances both say Thc in Cannabis and Lsd. For example, they will induce synaptic plasticity they will induce the the transformation of of neuronal connections. They they will induce more ah brains that will be more.
40:09.20
talknerdy
E.
40:23.30
Sidarta Ribeiro
Changeable more like more labual and this is what sleep does I mean there's actually there's a lot of perils there. We have evidence from my own lab that when animals are under rats are under Lsd they they will they will There will be awake and moving around but their brains will show. Ah um.
40:23.23
talknerdy
Right.
40:42.67
Sidarta Ribeiro
Electrical oscillations patterns of activity that are actually more like sleep. Um, so I think we we're actually seeing convergence here from the molecular fields from the electrophysiological fields of research and also from psychology that these substances they are dreamlike because they promote.
40:45.82
talknerdy
Yeah, well even though they're awake. Yeah.
41:02.23
Sidarta Ribeiro
Molecular and cellular changes that are sleep and dreamlike.
41:03.99
talknerdy
Oh that's interesting I'd also be curious to see and this is purely anecdotal but I'd be curious to see how sort of like high dose not low dose not microdose but high dose Mdma induces changes as well because one of my experiences back in the day was you take.
41:18.55
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, yes, yes.
41:23.88
talknerdy
You know you take Mdma you dance you have this like kind of speedy emotion and this very like euphoric experience. But when you take a lot of Mdma we would do what we call. We called it x dreaming that was the that was the phrase that we use like oh my god I just had an x dream because you would almost lose time you would be not present.
41:30.36
Sidarta Ribeiro
Is a.
41:37.10
Sidarta Ribeiro
EJ if a
41:42.63
talknerdy
And it would be like oh I was just in the car with so and so and I was telling them they need to change the radio station and people would hear you there'd be like you'd be with other people at a party and you go change the radio station. They were like what and you were like oh my God I was just in an X extreme like you would literally be dreaming while you were awake.
41:54.66
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, well there there are recent publications showing that Mdma has very similar properties. It's it's not exactly the same mdba has different effects from most psychedelics.
42:03.87
talknerdy
A. Right.
42:10.71
Sidarta Ribeiro
And it involves a lot of involves signaling through oxytocin. Ah but down the road it has to do with increased plasticity as well and this is why in fact, Mdma has been shown to be so effective at helping people with trauma right? They need toify risk signify their their pain.
42:23.90
talknerdy
Right. E.
42:30.57
Sidarta Ribeiro
And this is so hard to do if you're not in a place of love and and you may brings people to the place of Love. But if you look Molecularly what's happening is that you're really opening the gates of plasticity and in the in the in the setting and with of course professional people people that are that are you know they have been. Properly trained to make sure the experience goes the right way.
42:49.76
talknerdy
Right? right? Yeah, it's sort of like the clinical and very um, official version of you know planning ah a fun night of tripping and making sure that there's a babysitter press and what a lot of people would do. Yeah.
43:00.69
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, exactly and and and I think the the work of ah people like Rick doubling at maps in Amanda Fielding at the beley foundation and many others finally after decades of research and in in in activism they have.
43:10.45
talknerdy
Mm.
43:18.66
Sidarta Ribeiro
Arrived there that science now it has it has been published in the best scientific journals that these substances can be of help to people that have ah ptsd people that have depression anxiety and and this is I think a a major change because we're talking about not just.
43:21.41
talknerdy
Yeah, yeah.
43:35.67
Sidarta Ribeiro
Ah, you know drugs substance but we're talking about Psychotherapy assisted with by drugs that are that that have a very strong effect at very low doses and very occasional dosing.
43:39.67
talknerdy
Um, yeah, right, right? right? And it's it I What's curious to me and what's I think so important to me personally is that. This is a very specific application. That's well studied that is well controlled what I worry sometimes about is when you know I used to smoke weed all the time. It was a big part of my life I no longer do it I was starting to have panic attacks and like negative consequences from it but there was a period in my life when I loved it. But what? I.
44:07.98
Sidarta Ribeiro
E He e.
44:14.63
talknerdy
What I worry about is when I see people who sort of Hail the benefits of for example Cannabis as if it's this like panacea like oh Cannabis is great for this and that and this and then I'm like wooa away there's no evidence to support that and also it's actually could be detrimental in certain aspects and so there there becomes this sort of. Excitement about drugs where very often. It's taken to an extreme that unfortunately I think under yeah it like undermines the actual progress.
44:39.10
Sidarta Ribeiro
I I hear you completely I hear you? Yeah I think there's 2 things to consider here. 1 is that those substances tend to benefit people more. Ah, if they're older.
44:54.80
talknerdy
Okay.
44:56.50
Sidarta Ribeiro
Right? I mean and this is some this is comes back to dialogue between leeary and and Huxley in the sixty s um, it's young people have a lot of plasticity going on and sometimes if they have more plasticity in their brains. This can be quite confusing older people actually need.
45:00.30
talknerdy
E.
45:14.62
Sidarta Ribeiro
Plasticity they otherwise they become impossible. They they they they lose flexibility cognitive flexibility. So it's very I think it's very good for society that older people have access to those substances and I think we need to be careful with teenagers so that they don't spoil the experience. This is 1 aspect. The other thing. Is that these substances they're sacred in in the cultures they came from in in our society. They become completely profane I'm not arguing against parties. But I think that people um to ah to think that those powerful substance can be completely banalized.
45:36.53
talknerdy
Um, yeah.
45:50.48
Sidarta Ribeiro
And not used in the I'm not saying that everybody should be to taking for therapeutic reasons to have fun is also therapetic. But I think that to to treat them with no respect and and not really making them a big deal is wrong because they are a big deal and the third thing.
46:06.11
talknerdy
Right.
46:09.43
Sidarta Ribeiro
Is that when we talk about Cannabis We need to talk about which cannabis because the effects can be completely different depending on the genetics and not the not not only the genetics of the plants but the genetics of the person.
46:15.58
talknerdy
Yeah.
46:21.17
talknerdy
Yeah I mean it's That's another thing that you have really put some um, some hard research into both in your lab and also clearly looking at the literature is that there's this whole other Component. We've been talking quite a bit about Dreams. We've been talking about The. The neurobiology the sort of molecular biology and and then also maybe more like the cognitive psychology of dreams. But what we haven't really talked about is the is the and we've talked about evolution but we haven't really talked about the genetics of dreaming the sort of Heredity The the very the the.
46:40.85
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yeah.
46:57.88
talknerdy
Gene consequences of dreaming and this is you know you dedicate part of your book to to trying to understand what's going on at the level of Dna.
47:03.42
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, absolutely there's more research and research that started actually fruit flies showing that there are several genes that can influence circadian rhythms that can make animals leap more or less and so on there's less research and this is where my own work comes in. Stuff that I began in the 90 s and that I continue to this day which is to understand how this going through sleep and going through specific states of sleep such as rapid eye movement sleep or slow wave sleep which dominates the first half of the night. How are those states linked to specific changes in not. Not in in the sequence of of genes that you have because this is not going to change but in how they are expressed and how they are transcribed translated turns into protein and changing neuronal function and 1 thing that I discovered in publishing 99 into this day keeps unfolding is how um.
47:52.60
talknerdy
N.
48:01.18
Sidarta Ribeiro
Having a prior experience with novel objects and novels places and in in. Basically you know, exciting experiences will ah make ah a rat For example, Express Genes that are related to learning when the animal enters Rem sleep. But if the animal.
48:16.66
talknerdy
In.
48:19.60
Sidarta Ribeiro
Didn't have a ah new experience to process none of that will happen. So the brain will will will will express certain genes or not depending not just on the state. It's in now. But on how this state relates to what happened before. So yes.
48:22.40
talknerdy
Interesting.
48:32.80
talknerdy
Right? And this kind of takes us back to the video games and it takes us back to the student who is who is you know, studying before going to sleep at night.
48:38.76
Sidarta Ribeiro
Yes, yes, yes now. Ah, we still. There's so many things we don't understand so for. For example, sometimes you you schedule some challenge and your your sleep will process that and and the way you schedule it has a lot to do with whether you're going to form memories or not.
48:48.43
talknerdy
E.
48:56.77
talknerdy
Okay.
48:58.26
Sidarta Ribeiro
Give an example, their experiments performed by young bord and his team and in in Germany showing that if you you train subjects to do 2 tasks and then you tell them that the next day they will come and be tested again on both tests. But when they're leaving the lab. They're told by the experimenter in a very nonchalant way that they they won't be tested in both of them just one so they get this this passing yellow but we won't do the second one just the first. Okay, don't worry about yeah.
49:20.70
talknerdy
Um, almost like a passing kind of yeah yeah, yeah, don't worry about it. You don't actually have to think? Yeah yeah.
49:29.44
Sidarta Ribeiro
But the person doesn't go home to practice because the person doesn't have access to the tasks and in his or her computer. It's just you know they will come back the next they're gonna be tested. There's no overt thing to do about that and the next day just memory and when they come back the next day
49:38.55
talknerdy
Yeah, just memory. Yeah.
49:44.51
Sidarta Ribeiro
Sure enough they are very good. They're much better now at task one which they were told would be tested but they didn't improve it all in task Two. So Just the fact that that they received this bit of information saying this is just because they got this tag not relevant sleep used that to erase the memory. And disproportional to sleep states and so On. Um.
50:02.97
talknerdy
It's so it's so interesting. This parallel between the frontal lobe right? and this ability to attend this ability to utilize your executor during your conscious waking states and then this translation to dreaming when the frontal lobe gets quite Quiet. Um, but sort of primed you and set you up for this integration.
50:21.96
Sidarta Ribeiro
Absolutely And integration is a good word because a lot of what happens during Rems sleep has to do with integrating information across brain reaches say for example, hippocampus and and cortex. Um.
50:30.58
talknerdy
E.
50:36.58
Sidarta Ribeiro
And and and this integration is necessary for memories to move around in the brain for memory memories to mature ah old memories. They they're not residing in the same places where new memories get in There's a constant moving around of memories. What I call gypsy memories and and Ram's leap seems to be like a title. Wave of plasticity changes that keep pushing memories away from it the hippocampus and and and and placing them in the cortex and and this is a process that is necessary because we need to fit a lot of memories after you know after a few decades how many memories one has.
51:08.95
talknerdy
Right? right? Wow Yeah, yeah, you know I I Honestly we could talk for so many more hours. There's so much more stuff I want to dig into with you but I've been keeping you now for for almost an hour and I I just want to know.
51:12.25
Sidarta Ribeiro
For.
51:26.86
talknerdy
Before we start to sort of close up and before I ask you my closing 2 questions is there anything you know in this whole story a that we haven't gotten to that you feel like oh my gosh we didn't even cover this and B is there any sort of takeaway that maybe beyond what you told me earlier about how I can. You know, consciously induce streaming by thinking by you know, really focusing and setting an intention before sleeping is there any other sort of News. We can use about how to become more aware or become more acquainted with our own dreams.
51:50.58
Sidarta Ribeiro
Um, yes.
52:00.92
Sidarta Ribeiro
Well, of course people are now using all sorts of smart watches to track their sleep and this is interesting. But I think we need to this should be helping the sleep dream experience and not become the center of attention I think the center of attention is the sleep in the dream itself.
52:07.67
talknerdy
E.
52:18.32
talknerdy
M.
52:20.63
Sidarta Ribeiro
Ah, and so I would say in a nutshell is pay attention to what you're going to dream and how you going to sleep in in what you you want to dream before you go to sleep pay a lot of attention and dedicate time and effort to rescuing that memory when you wake up and then share it as much as you can with everybody you like.
52:37.86
talknerdy
Right.
52:40.19
Sidarta Ribeiro
And make it a topic of conversation because this has a tremendous ah impact on on our ability to remember dreams if you if you bring them back in your life then the next day it becomes much easier to remember because not, it's not only you expecting that dream. Other people will also want to listen so here at at home. Every time I see my children I say I tell them did you bring me ah a dream can you tell me a dream and this has an effect because they want to do it so you put desire on in a you know working towards that 1 topic that we haven't covered at all is that when we dream we encounter.
53:01.85
talknerdy
Who yeah.
53:18.12
talknerdy
Right? yeah.
53:18.50
Sidarta Ribeiro
People people that we met people that we imagine and and characters all kinds of characters. We tend to think that this is um, not very important because we tend to think that. Ah we are We are the only person that inhabits our mind and I want to say that that my book actually Argues strongly against that.
53:33.95
talknerdy
Writes.
53:38.34
Sidarta Ribeiro
And give some some neurophysiological reasons why we should not believe it in fact, our minds are populated by thousands of creatures and we keep encountering them in dreams in the past in ancient Greece and ancient rome in ancient Egypt. These encounters were of tremendous consequence. People were meeting their ancestors meeting gods and goddesses and getting instructions and this is there's very clear historical record showing that and I've been proposing that we should try to go back to this kind of relationship with our own minds right? I believe that this is a wealth. Of of relationships of relationships that are created inside our minds in our inner world that can be tremendously relevant and and promote health and I want to close with this that if we were able to sleep better and dream better. This would probably be very healing for a people individually. But also for society which really needs it.
54:36.82
talknerdy
Absolutely gosh here here. so so I'm curious now I I always ask my guest the same 2 questions. They're sort of big picture questions and I think you may have touched on your answer just now. But maybe there's something else that you would like to share um in whatever. Context is relevant to you. So obviously this could be informed by your work but it could also be quite personal. It could be communal. It could be familial. It could be global or even cosmic I'd love to know number 1 what is the thing that really is oh gosh this is funny keeping you up at night. No fun intended.
55:02.64
Sidarta Ribeiro
Sin.
55:12.99
talknerdy
That's funny I Always ask the same way and now it has more meaning. Um, what is the thing that really is sort of possessing your mind making you quite concerned. Um, ah maybe even a bit pessimistic or cynical when you're thinking about the future and then on the flip side of that so that we could um.
55:26.69
Sidarta Ribeiro
Okay.
55:29.96
talknerdy
We could end on a more positive note where are you finding your optimism and your hope these days.
55:36.70
Sidarta Ribeiro
It's interesting. You put it that way. Ah I I believe that we are drowning in a glass of water because we have all the means if we put together the best of knowledge in all different cultures in the world right? now we can make this planet thrive.
55:41.42
talknerdy
E.
55:53.10
Sidarta Ribeiro
Not just for our species. But for all the other species that we are harming because we have all the knowledge that we need and we should have all the wisdom that we need the fact that we still didn't do it is a poly if the 10 richest people in the world had taken 1 % of their money. Towards vaccinating everybody fast in the world in a homogeneous manner. We probably would not be dealing with the pandemic anymore and the fact that they didn't and in fact, they doubled their wealth. It's for me, it's a sign that we. We lost track of something quite important which is a sense of reality people are believing that money and things are more real than life and this is crazy. Yes, this is crazy crazy crazy crazy. So I think that ah you know.
56:37.32
talknerdy
Right? right? then then relationships and experiences. Yeah.
56:48.63
Sidarta Ribeiro
Bad nutrition bad sleep, no exercise and toxic relationships they're getting us you know in ah in a very dangerous path in the in ah in social dangers and also you know climate risks that we're facing very clearly. And I think that this lack of insight especially from the strongest among us is probably because we're living wrong our ancestors if they had this sort of bad insights. We wouldn't be here for many many many many many ah generations the strongest were taking care of the of the weakest.
57:16.53
talknerdy
Um, yeah.
57:24.98
Sidarta Ribeiro
Why is it that the strongest now are just trying to get stronger. So there's a problem there and I and I have this feeling that it's related to sleep and dreaming. Um, what makes me optimistic I tell my friends that I have apocalyptic optimism because yes, we're facing this.
57:26.76
talknerdy
Right? right.
57:43.56
Sidarta Ribeiro
Challenge. It seems horrible. The Amazon is burning 800000000 people starving in the world wars you know you know the pandemic that doesn't seem to go away but at the same time we have so much knowledge and wisdom accumulated and the capital is so accumulated. That we're so really close to a big change. We're close to a major change right? Most people in the world say they believe in love and sharing and compassion. We're we're close to actually getting it because imagine in the past imagine in the time of Genghis Khan or the queen victoria
58:16.31
talknerdy
Union.
58:19.87
Sidarta Ribeiro
If she said I want to feed everybody in the world. It wouldn't be possible logistically technically it was limited and this has changed in the past few decades now so now we're in a way the most difficult part is done.
58:22.39
talknerdy
Um, right logistically it wouldn't be possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, it's true. Yeah.
58:38.23
Sidarta Ribeiro
But now we need to take an extra step which is to actually you know talk that talk and walk the walk. We need to actually make it happen but everybody say I'm precious. Okay, let's share.
58:44.19
talknerdy
Right? It's to have the will. Yeah yeah, it's see we've got to have the will. We've got to have we've got to prioritize it. We have to just do it. Yeah ah also no fun intended.
58:53.74
Sidarta Ribeiro
We we're lacking a common dream. Ah, ah, ah, great. Awesome! Thank you.
59:02.48
talknerdy
Oh gosh I'm so inspired this doesn't always happen at the end of the show. Gosh thank you thank you? So so so much everybody the book is the oracle of night. The history and science of dreams by I'm Goingnna try this again and see if I can rock it doctor see that ha ah oh see that ah see that. Ah.
59:16.98
Sidarta Ribeiro
See Dr Hibado see that he yes, thank you very much kara excellent questions. You're very welcome.
59:22.33
talknerdy
Heba. Ah thank you so much for being here. Oh thank you and everyone listening. Thank you for coming back week after week I'm really looking forward to the next time we all get together to talk nerdy.
